# I think I may be changing to an anti abortion (pro life) stance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326 "2015-08-08T17:32:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/181 "2015-08-10T13:20:30Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > But no, I don’t think mothers should have a right to infanticide. Quote from your post: “I think that embryos are alive and human and I am OK with describing abortion as “killing”. I don’t feel the need for euphemisms.” So don’t eumphemize. If you don’t think mothers should have a right to infanticide, then abortion should not be a right. Since it is infanticide. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/182 "2015-08-10T13:26:22Z")
Random thoughts here, but I hope to give a different perspective - I could have ended up an abortion statistic, but I was born pre- R. v. W so I was adopted. I got lucky because I was born white, healthy, physically normal and (I suspect though I’m not 100% sure on this), to someone my adoptive parents knew, at least peripherally. I was adopted into a nice middle class family, and have led a good happy life overall. That said, had abortion been an option for the woman that bore me I might not exist today.\*\* That thought does not bother me one bit.\*\* If she’d chosen to abort I would have known nothing, missed nothing, felt no regret that I wasn’t being given a chance. How could I? I might have been in pain? Well, yeah, maybe. But I bet birth is no picnic, and pain IS part of life and death, like it or not. Death is not an enemy, and there are far worse things than a quick death, especially (IMO, of course) if it comes before one has really lived. I got lucky in the people that adopted me. I’ve had a good life but certainly not one without pain or trials or grief. Many children are not that lucky. Wouldn’t it be better to focus on the ones who are already here and learning, feeling, knowing than to worry about those who have no real “life” yet? I feel far sorrier for kids born because the mother felt she HAD to than for any aborted fetus. The OP says that the woman should have to carry to term and would be given financial assistance if necessary to see that the child is born safely and then it could be put up for adoption. That may work for cute healthy white boy-babies, but what about babies born with fetal-alcohol syndrome? Or spina bifida? What if the woman is guilted into keeping the child and then spends the next 18 years making that child miserable? Don’t say it doesn’t happen, it sure as hell does but few people will admit they made a mistake having kids. From my perspective, death-before-awareness can absolutely be a better thing than a life unloved, unfed, abused, and struggling. It’s really easy to focus on “OMG the poor little baybeees” thing, and forget about the next 60+ years. ` ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/183 "2015-08-10T13:42:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So don’t eumphemize. If you don’t think mothers should have a right to infanticide, then abortion should not be a right. Since it is infanticide. Are we clear here that you are offering an opinion and not a fact? As far as I have been able to determine the equation “abortion = infanticide” is pretty much exclusive to the hardcore pro-life camp. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/184 "2015-08-10T13:46:00Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Are we clear here that you are offering an opinion and not a fact? It is a fact stipulated to by the poster ( **AHunter3** ) to whom I was responding. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/185 "2015-08-10T13:48:03Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Here’s something you haven’t considered–not all women getting abortions are those single sluts out fucking everybody but you. I agree with most of your post, but insulting someone’s sex life is the flip side of the slut-shaming coin, and you shouldn’t do it. > [@Terr](#): > > Quote from your post: > > “I think that embryos are alive and human and I am OK with describing abortion as “killing”. I don’t feel the need for euphemisms.” > > So don’t eumphemize. If you don’t think mothers should have a right to infanticide, then abortion should not be a right. Since it is infanticide. I think that carrots are alive and I am okay with describing harvest as “killing.” I don’t feel the need for euphemisms. So don’t euphemize. If you don’t think that farmers should have a right to infanticide, then harvesting carrots should not be a right. Since it is infanticide. Oh, wait a second. Infanticide is only killing **infants** , right? And carrots aren’t infants. Never mind! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/186 "2015-08-10T13:50:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think that carrots are alive “alive and human”. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/187 "2015-08-10T13:59:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is a fact stipulated to by the poster ( **AHunter3** ) to whom I was responding. Where has **AHunter3** written such a thing? I found one post where (s)he referred to abortion as “killing”, never as “infanticide”. World of a difference. You can call abortion infanticide if you can demonstrate that an embryo in every stage of development is the same thing as a born child. As long as you cannot do that your “fact” assertion is unsubstantiated and remains an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/188 "2015-08-10T14:01:44Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I feel like this is a bit of a circular argument (lets call it a debate instead), what I mean is both sides are repeating the same points and the problem is with the POV they bring to the conversation initially. Not entirely true; the issue doesn’t exist in a tautological closed loop. It is possible to consider the real-world effects of abortion freedom and abortion restriction and come to the conclusion that the former is less negative. > [@](#): > > Your comments are perfectly valid and on point for a topic that does not involve a human life. I’ll cheerfully proclaim that the fetus is a human life, but even if it wasn’t, the topic certainly DOES involve a human life - the human life of the pregnant woman. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I cannot or will not recognize the characteristics of the fetus and if only I could, my views would adjust accordingly. > [@](#): > > So, from the pro choice POV your comments are valid and perfectly on point. THAT’S a tautology. People who agree with me will recognize the validity of my comnents; true, but meaningless. > [@](#): > > The thing is, not everyone views it the same as you. Well, obviously. > [@](#): > > There has to be some middle ground between totally not relevant and totally completely relevant. I think any honest analysis of the situation would make this claim quite plainly and quite legitimately. Well, my position is that the specific aspect has no relevance until such time as relevance is demonstrated, and I believe I have described why this is unlikely. In the meantime, I don’t feel compelled to adopt some kind of compromise position just to satisfy some vague requirement of “honesty.” > [@](#): > > I don’t like hearing the pro life people calling it murder, or saying why kill the baby or demonizing women. I don’t like hearing the pro choice side saying the pro life objections are irrelevant and all that matters is the woman’s choice. Yes, it is her choice but there are several very relevant factors in the situation. To say, “XYZ” is not relevant… well I am not going to accept that. Your acceptance or lack thereof was always your choice, as is the extent, if any, to which the issue informs your voting decisions. My decisions are similarly informed by what I decide is important to me. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/189 "2015-08-10T14:02:03Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Where has **AHunter3** written such a thing? I found one post where (s)he referred to abortion as “killing”, never as “infanticide”. World of a difference. > > You can call abortion infanticide if you can demonstrate that an embryo in every stage of development is the same thing as a born child. As long as you cannot do that your “fact” assertion is unsubstantiated and remains an opinion. Killing an “alive and human” embryo. It is not an adult, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/190 "2015-08-10T14:03:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Killing an “alive and human” embryo. It is not an adult, is it? You are right. It is not an adult. It is not even a child yet. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/191 "2015-08-10T14:05:21Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > You are right. It is not an adult. It is not even a child yet. No, it is a “human life” ( **Brian Ekers** ), “alive and human” ( **AHunter3** ), that is being terminated. In other words, infanticide. If you don’t want to euphemize, of course. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/192 "2015-08-10T14:21:48Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > She would not be wrong in anyway whatsoever. If she does not want to gestate a fetus, she should have full freedom to have the fetus removed from her body. Yep, that’s pretty much how I see it. I think that the man’s wishes are a moral issue between and man and the woman who conceived. But ultimately, the decision to go forward or not with a pregnancy resides solely with the woman. The man can’t die if the pregnancy goes haywire. The man’s not having the nutrients sucked out of his body. Basically, at the end of the day, the man doesn’t really have a piece of piss to say about it. And I’m saying that as a guy. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/193 "2015-08-10T14:22:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it is a “human life” ( **Brian Ekers** ), “alive and human” ( **AHunter3** ), that is being terminated. In other words, infanticide. If you don’t want to euphemize, of course. It’s only infanticide if it’s an infant. A fetus is not an infant. Two very different things. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/194 "2015-08-10T14:25:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it is a “human life” ( **Brian Ekers** ), “alive and human” ( **AHunter3** ), that is being terminated. In other words, infanticide. If you don’t want to euphemize, of course. The term infanticide implies the killing of a child. If what is being killed is not a child, the killing does not represent an infanticide. If you abort a fertilized egg, you are killing it. If the egg is human, you are killing human life. But if you are having an appendicitis you are also removing living cells from your body and thus killing them. That does not make an appendicitis infanticide, right? The difference of course is that the appendix will never grow into a child, while the fertilized egg could. Because of that \*potential \*you object to the killing of the egg. There is a difference between what the egg currently is and what it may one day become. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/195 "2015-08-10T14:25:34Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s only infanticide if it’s an infant. A fetus is not an infant. Two very different things. Yeah, let’s call it something else. “Alive and human life” but we name it something different, then it is easier to kill it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/196 "2015-08-10T14:26:35Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > But if you are having an appendicitis you are also removing living cells from your body and thus killing them. That does not make an appendicitis infanticide, right? Is your appendix a “human life”? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/197 "2015-08-10T14:33:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Is your appendix a “human life”? Is it alive? Yes. It can die. Is it human? Yes, of course. Yes, I would say the appendix represents human life. I am of course aware that it cannot exist independently from the rest of the body. But neither can the fertilized egg. So where exactly do you draw the distinction? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/198 "2015-08-10T14:37:53Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Is it alive? Yes. It can die. > Is it human? Yes, of course. > Yes, I would say the appendix represents human life. Don’t weasel. I asked if your appendix is a “human life”. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/199 "2015-08-10T14:41:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Don’t weasel. > > I asked if your appendix is a “human life”. No. I don’t think it is. See, I did not weasel. Now it is your turn. Will you answer my last question? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/200 "2015-08-10T14:46:41Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > No. I don’t think it is. So if you don’t think it is, why did you give it as an analogy to abortion? > [@](#): > > See, I did not weasel. Now it is your turn. Will you answer my last question? Where I draw the distinction? At terminating a “human life” - for any reason other than extreme. Such as saving the mother’s life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326.md?page=11)