# I think I may be changing to an anti abortion (pro life) stance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326 "2015-08-08T17:32:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/201 "2015-08-10T14:50:27Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Congratulations! You have just discovered that this is a complex issue. It really isn’t. It’s just a philosophical one: where does a bundle of cells become a human with rights? ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/202 "2015-08-10T15:00:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It really isn’t. It’s just a philosophical one: where does a bundle of cells become a human with rights? It’s not. To me it’s a simple issue. A fetus is not a life by any stretch of the imagination. Thus it has no rights. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/203 "2015-08-10T15:01:40Z")
That is my view, too, but it is not universally held. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/204 "2015-08-10T15:01:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So if you don’t think it is, why did you give it as an analogy to abortion? Because I do not think that a fertilized egg represents a human life either. > [@Terr](#): > > Where I draw the distinction? At terminating a “human life” - for any reason other than extreme. Such as saving the mother’s life. My question is where you draw the distinction between the fertilized egg and the appendix. More precisely, why you believe the former to be a human life but not the latter. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/205 "2015-08-10T15:03:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yeah, let’s call it something else. “Alive and human life” but we name it something different, then it is easier to kill it. As I said, not necessarily a cheerleader for abortion. I am a cheerleader for accuracy, though. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/206 "2015-08-10T15:05:07Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > My question is where you draw the distinction between the fertilized egg and the appendix. More precisely, why you believe the former to be a human life but not the latter. Left alone, without killing it/removing it, there is exactly 0 chance that the appendix will be born and develop into an adult human. Unless you know something I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/207 "2015-08-10T15:06:36Z")
> [@Laggard](#): > > It’s not. > > To me it’s a simple issue. A fetus is not a life by any stretch of the imagination. Thus it has no rights. Wow. I consider myself a pro-choicer, but that is a bit extreme for me. A fetus in its latter stages of development is a fully formed human being. During the last weeks of pregnancy it would in most cases be able to survive outside the mother’s body. It does not take a stretch of the imagination to call it a life. Were you maybe thinking of an embryo? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/208 "2015-08-10T15:07:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “alive and human”. The definition of “infant” is more complicated than you’re admitting. It’s certainly not “a human that’s not an adult.” > [@](#): > > Yeah, let’s call it something else. “Alive and human life” but we name it something different, then it is easier to kill it. This is exactly backwards. Because it’s more ethical to kill a fetus than to kill an infant, we use different words for the acts. We don’t use the different words in order to make an ethical difference, any more than we call “bagels” and “doughnuts” by different words in order to let us cook them in different ways. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/209 "2015-08-10T15:11:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The definition of “infant” is more complicated than you’re admitting. It’s certainly not “a human that’s not an adult.” Do an experiment. Go out in the street and ask 20 random people “what’s a human that’s not an adult”. See what they answer. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/210 "2015-08-10T15:17:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Left alone, without killing it/removing it, there is exactly 0 chance that the appendix will be born and develop into an adult human. Unless you know something I don’t. I agree. The egg may one day become a child, the appendix won’t. I have said as much earlier. But now we are back to the item of _potential_. We are no longer talking about what the egg currently is, but rather about what it could become. You have chosen to define the point in time when a sperm fuses into an egg as the beginning of human life (and if you are religious probably as the moment when a soul is created). It must be that very moment - none earlier and none later. I believe that to be an arbitrary definition and I find it unconvincing. And that becomes a problem when that unconvincing definition is used to deny women the right to decide what happens in and with their body. If you believe that the definition is not arbitrary, then I would like to know why. What makes the moment of fertilisation more relevant than for example the moment of implantation, or as Robert had it the moment of the first heartbeat? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/211 "2015-08-10T15:24:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do an experiment. Go out in the street and ask 20 random people “what’s a human that’s not an adult”. See what they answer. It’s raining outside, so I have opted to ask wikipedia instead: > [@](#): > > The term infant is typically applied to young children between the ages of 1 month and 12 months; however, definitions may vary between birth and 1 year of age, or even between birth and 2 years of age. A newborn is an infant who is only hours, days, or up to a few weeks old. In medical contexts, newborn or neonate (from Latin, neonatus, newborn) refers to an infant in the first 28 days after birth;[1] the term applies to premature infants, postmature infants, and full term infants. Before birth, the term fetus is used. In the UK, infant is a term that can be applied to school children aged between four and seven. Seems that “infant” does not apply to the unborn. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/212 "2015-08-10T15:26:45Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > I agree. The egg may one day become a child, the appendix won’t. I have said as much earlier. > But now we are back to the item of _potential_. We are no longer talking about what the egg currently is, but rather about what it could become. It’s the same exact thing with the 1-day old baby. It’s about potential, not what it is. > [@](#): > > If you believe that the definition is not arbitrary, then I would like to know why. What makes the moment of fertilisation more relevant than for example the moment of implantation, or as Robert had it the moment of the first heartbeat? You agreed that it’s “human life”. So - the non-arbitrariness here is the principle of not terminating a “human life” without an extreme reason. If you want to argue that it is “human life” before implantation, then that becomes the non-arbitrary point as well. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/213 "2015-08-10T15:29:13Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > It’s raining outside, so I have opted to ask wikipedia instead: Weaseling, again. I didn’t say “ask what “infant” means”. I said ask “what’s a human that’s not an adult”. The exact phrasing that \*\* Left Hand of Dorkness\*\* used. What do you think the 20 random people asked would answer? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/214 "2015-08-10T15:30:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yeah, let’s call it something else. “Alive and human life” but we name it something different, then it is easier to kill it. I’m okay with calling a fetus “alive and human life” and still being pro-choice. If you prefer to let labels and not circumstances guide your views, so be it. Take the example of “infanticide”. Even if we use the term as broadly as you describe, there is a notable circumstantial difference between “infanticide” of a fetus and “infanticide” of an infant, namely its location inside or not inside the body of another person. If you use “infanticide” to describe one and “infanticide” to describe the other\* in the same sentence without noting the distinction\*, what you have done also has a label; “prevarication”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/215 "2015-08-10T15:32:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do an experiment. Go out in the street and ask 20 random people “what’s a human that’s not an adult”. See what they answer. My immediate answer would be “a child”, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/216 "2015-08-10T15:32:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Do an experiment. Go out in the street and ask 20 random people “what’s a human that’s not an adult”. See what they answer. :dubious: You go do your dumbass experiment. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/217 "2015-08-10T15:34:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > My immediate answer would be “a child”, for what it’s worth. Exactly. Tell that to **Left Hand of Dorkness** ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/218 "2015-08-10T15:36:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s the same exact thing with the 1-day old baby. It’s about potential, not what it is. Is that so? I would not kill a 1-day old baby, even if it had no potential whatsoever. Would you? > [@Terr](#): > > You agreed that it’s “human life”. I have agreed to no such thing. On the contrary. (Please read my post #204 again.) > [@Terr](#): > > So - the non-arbitrariness here is the principle of not terminating a “human life” without an extreme reason. > > If you want to argue that it is “human life” before implantation, then that becomes the non-arbitrary point as well. When does a “human life” begin? You seem to be dead sure to know the very moment and yet you refuse to say how you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/219 "2015-08-10T15:36:47Z")
I’m not sure what the point is; it’s just another label dispute, as though applying the perfect label would immediately resolve the issue. Sheer fantasy, in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/220 "2015-08-10T15:40:20Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Is that so? I would not kill a 1-day old baby, even if it had no potential whatsoever. Would you? I would not kill a fetus either. > [@](#): > > I have agreed to no such thing. Ah that’s correct. **AHunter3** and **Bryan Ekers** did. Then you injected yourself into the conversation. Ok - if you don’t consider it a “human life” then it is ok to kill it - for you. I was pursuing **AHunter3** ’s and **Bryan Ekers** ’s line of argument where they consider it a “human life” but are fine with killing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326.md?page=12)