# I think I may be changing to an anti abortion (pro life) stance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326 "2015-08-08T17:32:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/221 "2015-08-10T15:45:02Z")
Terr, is it your position that it is never okay under any circumstances to kill a human? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/222 "2015-08-10T15:45:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Terr, is it your position that it is never okay under any circumstances to kill a human? No. As I posted several times. In this thread. The fact that you apparently missed. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/223 "2015-08-10T15:51:35Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I would not kill a fetus either. I know you wouldn’t. The question is why. My reason for not killing the baby is that I see it for what it is _now_. A living, breathing, feeling human being. That’s why it is irrelevant for me, whether it has any potential. The fertilized egg at the beginning of pregnancy is no such thing. It does not think of feel or suffer. All it has is potential. And again - potential is not relevant for me. That is why I do not object to killing the fertilized egg. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/224 "2015-08-10T15:52:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > My immediate answer would be “a child”, for what it’s worth. Almost certainly 19 of 20 would say child (and the 20th would say niño). “Infant”, to me at least, describes a quite young child typically one who is not yet walking at which point they become a toddler. I think the argument would be better phrased as discussing “child” rather than “infant.” Or if you prefer it could be asked what do you call a human who is not yet a toddler, to which you’d probably get “baby” as an answer, but you’d have a chance at “infant.” In any case, I’d think most people would exclude all but late term fetuses from whichever word was under discussion. There is no necessity that a language have a word that mean “all X excluding Y”. What do you call all humans you aren’t middle-aged or all humans who aren’t teen-agers? We certainly don’t have words for those in English. Let’s go to the opposite end of the spectrum. What do we call all humans who are over, say, 54? “Old” perhaps, but old is a generic word not connoting people. Let’s suppose we decide to call them “dotans.” Does dotans include those on life support? I would hope so. Does it include those are brain dead but are being kept “alive” because they are organ donors whose organs have not yet been removed? I would hope not because that would make the removal of the organs criminal I’d think. So if “brain death” is the end of life, isn’t “brain birth” its beginning? When is that? I don’t know, but it’s certainly later than conception. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/225 "2015-08-10T15:53:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. As I posted several times. In this thread. The fact that you apparently missed. Just yes or no would have sufficed. Anyway, let’s grant that “human” is an accurate descriptor from conception to decomposition. If we’re not to assume that a human is unkillable, then it’s fair to discuss what circumstances might justify killing a human. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/226 "2015-08-10T15:57:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Exactly. Tell that to **Left Hand of Dorkness** If your point is that people, before having considered the issues carefully, giving off-the-cuff ill-considered responses, might confuse “a child” and “a human life that’s not an adult,” we’re in complete agreement. Similarly, if you ask these people to describe “a pet that’s not a cat,” a lot of them might say, “dog.” That doesn’t mean I’m going to buy a Kong toy for my goldfish. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/227 "2015-08-10T16:03:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just yes or no would have sufficed. Anyway, let’s grant that “human” is an accurate descriptor from conception to decomposition. If we’re not to assume that a human is unkillable, then it’s fair to discuss what circumstances might justify killing a human. I do not think I would follow that line of argument. If I were to accept that the fertilized egg at conception is a human being in the same sense you and I are (and I do not accept that) then I would probably disagree with abortion. The reason is that none of the circumstances where I consider the killing of a human being to be justifiable applies here. I believe the relevant question is not whether or not a human being may be killed but rather at what point a human being comes into existence. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/228 "2015-08-10T16:08:09Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just yes or no would have sufficed. Anyway, let’s grant that “human” is an accurate descriptor from conception to decomposition. If we’re not to assume that a human is unkillable, then it’s fair to discuss what circumstances might justify killing a human. Ok. Circumstances: 1. wartime, under certain conditions, subject to certain rules 2. as punishment for killing another human or humans under especially egregious circumstances. 3. in self-defense, if you (legally: reasonably) think the human is about to kill you 4. to prevent the death of another human, under some circumstances 5. controversial, but I agree with it: if the human in question is fully mentally competent and formally and firmly asks you to do it. Only (4) above can possibly apply to abortion. As I already posted, I would agree to abortions that are necessary to save the mother’s life. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/229 "2015-08-10T16:40:15Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > You have chosen to define the point in time when a sperm fuses into an egg as the beginning of human life (and if you are religious probably as the moment when a soul is created). It must be that very moment - none earlier and none later. I believe that to be an arbitrary definition and I find it unconvincing. And that becomes a problem when that unconvincing definition is used to deny women the right to decide what happens in and with their body. > > If you believe that the definition is not arbitrary, then I would like to know why. What makes the moment of fertilisation more relevant than for example the moment of implantation, or as Robert had it the moment of the first heartbeat? So if you’re forced to give an answer for the moment “human life” begins, what is it? To me, the most logical answer is when the sperm fertilizes the egg as that is the absolute beginning, genetically speaking, of what this organism will be: a human. Those that have seriously thought about this and have chosen a later time at which the organism becomes “human” are probably just trying to justify killing it without guilt. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/230 "2015-08-10T17:05:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Quote from your post: > > “I think that embryos are alive and human and I am OK with describing abortion as “killing”. I don’t feel the need for euphemisms.” > > So don’t eumphemize. If you don’t think mothers should have a right to infanticide, then abortion should not be a right. Since it is infanticide. If we’re giong to designate abortions as a form of infanticide, then I’m OK with infanticide and mothers should have a right to that particular form of infanticide, i.e., infanticide prior to birth. Trying to paint the deed with increasingly lurid descriptive terms doesn’t make it any more wrong. It’s also still part of her body and I think she’s the best judge of whether or not to bring that life into this world, and she retains the moral authority to make that decision up until the moment of birth. (I’m OK with _Roe v Wade_ as a compromise but only if people leave _Roe_ untrammeled with restrictions and if abortion services are available and affordable everywhere). ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/231 "2015-08-10T17:09:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ok. Circumstances: > > 1. wartime, under certain conditions, subject to certain rules > > 2. as punishment for killing another human or humans under especially egregious circumstances. > > 3. in self-defense, if you (legally: reasonably) think the human is about to kill you > > 4. to prevent the death of another human, under some circumstances > > 5. controversial, but I agree with it: if the human in question is fully mentally competent and formally and firmly asks you to do it. I’m fine with that list so far. Now add this one: 1. abortion, under circumstances deemed appropriate by the pregnant woman. In other words it doesn’t fall into some other category. It’s its own category. There’s no other situation quite like it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/232 "2015-08-10T17:13:39Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I’m fine with that list so far. Now add this one: > > 1. abortion, under circumstances deemed appropriate by the pregnant woman. “It’s ok to kill the baby if the mother wants to”. I don’t consider that correct. But I bet you guessed that already. Thing is, very few “pro-choice” advocates are honest like that. If they were, abortions would be prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/233 "2015-08-10T17:15:32Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > I believe the relevant question is not whether or not a human being may be killed but rather at what point a human being comes into existence. We’ll have to disagree on the path, even if they all lead to the same place. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/234 "2015-08-10T17:16:26Z")
> [@nate](#): > > So if you’re forced to give an answer for the moment “human life” begins, what is it? To me, the most logical answer is when the sperm fertilizes the egg as that is the absolute beginning, genetically speaking, of what this organism will be: a human. This is nonsense based on the fallacy of the mountain. I drop a grain of sand on the ground. Is it a mountain? I drop another on the ground. Is it a mountain? I keep doing this until there’s a pile of sand 20,000 feet tall. Is it a mountain? After the first grain, it’s clearly not a mountain. When it’s 20,000 feet tall, it’s clearly a mountain. Agreed? So I want you to identify the exact moment–the exact grain of sand–that I drop that changes the pile from being simply a pile of sand into being a mountain. If we apply the same logic to this problem that you applied to the question of when life begins, the only acceptable answer is that it’s a mountain as soon as the first grain of sand is dropped. > [@](#): > > Those that have seriously thought about this and have chosen a later time at which the organism becomes “human” are probably just trying to justify killing it without guilt. And here’s where your nonsense gets offensive. Those that have thought seriously about the problem and have chosen a later time at which the organism becomes (and I’m deliberately going to use the phrase “a person” rather than “human” because I don’t think biological taxonomy controls ethics) a person are not trying to wipe away guilt: they’re rejecting the fallacy of the mountain in favor of more careful thought. Your lack of understanding of your own fallacious thinking indicts you, not others. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/235 "2015-08-10T17:18:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “It’s ok to kill the baby if the mother wants to”. I don’t consider that correct. But I bet you guessed that already. > > Thing is, very few “pro-choice” advocates are honest like that. If they were, abortions would be prohibited. WHile we’re at it, can we call the embryo the Patron Saint of Mercy And All That’s Good, and Honorary Professor of Neurolinguistics at Yale? Because you’d be equally right to say, “very few ‘pro-choice’ advocates are honest enough to say, ‘It’s ok to kill the Patron Saint of Mercy And All That’s Good, and Honorary Professor of Neurolinguistics at Yale if the mother wants to.’” The embryo is not a baby. The embryo is not a carrot. The embryo is not an adult. The embryo is not a saint. The embryo is not a professor. When pro-choice advocates refuse to use the word “baby,” they’re being far more honest that people that call an embryo a baby. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/236 "2015-08-10T17:20:06Z")
> [@truthseeker3](#): > > I meant unique from its parents. That is, it’s not part of the mother’s body, as I’ve heard claimed. Not completely. A fertilised egg is comprised of a mixture of the parent’s DNA, after all. So would a natural feritlised egg carried by the biological mother be worth less than a fertilised egg implanted into a surrogate? The surrogate is carrying an egg with even more unique (though I don’t actually think that works with “unique”. Even more different.) DNA than the egg in its biological mother’s womb. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/237 "2015-08-10T17:20:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Thing is, very few “pro-choice” advocates are honest like that. If they were, abortions would be prohibited. That’s not a criticism of pro-choicers, though. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/238 "2015-08-10T17:21:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When pro-choice advocates refuse to use the word “baby,” they’re being far more honest that people that call an embryo a baby. I was replying to **AHunter3**. Your refuse to admit that the embryo is “human life”. He agrees it is. So if you prefer: “It’s ok to terminate the humam life if the mother wants to”. I don’t consider that correct. But I bet you guessed that already. Thing is, very few “pro-choice” advocates are honest like that. If they were, abortions would be prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/239 "2015-08-10T17:33:15Z")
What, if anything, is the difference between “the mother wants to terminate the fetus” and “the mother wants to terminate the human life”, stipulating that the sentences are referring to the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/240 "2015-08-10T17:34:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I was replying to **AHunter3**. Your refuse to admit that the embryo is “human life”. This is…how do I put this…untrue. As I just said, I don’t think that “human” is the controlling word for determining moral subjecthood. Of course an embryo is human life, just as the skin cells on my left pinky are human life. But neither those skin cells nor an embryo are a baby. If I get a manicure, I’m going to kill some human life. It’s ok to terminate the human life if I want to. Given a fetus in a woman’s belly, it’s ok to terminate the human life if the woman wants to. The difference between killing human life and killing a person is fundamental. I do not dispute that pinky skin cells or embryos are living cellular clusters with human DNA. I dispute that either are persons, that either are moral subjects. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326.md?page=13)