# I think I may be changing to an anti abortion (pro life) stance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326 "2015-08-08T17:32:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/521 "2015-08-16T17:06:04Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > As you state above, your entire approach to abortion is premised on the nonexistence of the immortal soul, so unsurprisingly, those of us who disagree with your premise also disagree with the conclusion. If the soul is immortal, what difference does it make if one dies six months before birth or 100 years afterward, as far as the soul is concerned? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/522 "2015-08-16T17:08:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, Terr was kind enough to post a list earlier of situations where he was okay with killing human beings, one of which was judicial execution. He chose not to include abortion and I do. Unless you feel that a fetus is somehow comparable to a murderer sentenced to death, I do not see the point you are making. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/523 "2015-08-16T17:27:19Z")
One wonders how the anti abortion crowd would feel about giving up eating meat because others find it morally repugnant? Why should the morally bankrupt be permitted to take life from a living creature when there are vegetables, fruits, etc, aplenty, that could easily feed us WITHOUT the killing of any of God’s beautiful creatures? I’m going to guess they’d like to let everybody choose for themselves rather than have someone else’s moral beliefs determine _their_ dining choices. Yet when it comes to reproductive rights, their moral view should rule, no choice for you! ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/524 "2015-08-16T18:26:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I have no problem recognizing that aborting a fetus is killing a human being. Human beings far further along in their physical and mental development than fetuses get legally killed all the time. This is basically the pro-choice position I take. If it’s legal to kill someone who is in your house without your consent, it damn well should be legal to kill someone that is in your uterus without your consent. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/525 "2015-08-16T18:32:02Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > This is basically the pro-choice position I take. If it’s legal to kill someone who is in your house without your consent, it damn well should be legal to kill someone that is in your uterus without your consent. It’s not legal to kill someone just because they’re in your house without your permission. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/526 "2015-08-16T18:46:45Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > This is basically the pro-choice position I take. If it’s legal to kill someone who is in your house without your consent, it damn well should be legal to kill someone that is in your uterus without your consent. That “unwelcome person in your home” analogy gets floated around a lot here. Where does that lead us? So if it is \*not \*legal to kill someone who is in your house without your consent, does that mean it should \*not \*be legal to kill someone that is in your uterus? I do not think that is how it works. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/527 "2015-08-16T19:36:23Z")
I hate saying this, but though I’m 100% Pro-Choice, I can’t describe how awful I would feel if I impregnated a woman who chose to get an abortion. I would hope that the woman would be stronger than I would be. Please don’t get me wrong. I would be just as, or MORE, upset to be an ill equipped father. I once put myself in a situation where there was a very, VERY small chance that impregnated a woman, and it messed me up for about a month, (until I was sure I was in the clear.) I learned my lesson. I was sure the woman I had relations with would have had the pregnancy terminated, and that made me sick to my stomach. NOT THAT I WOULD JUDGE HER, (she would have been doing the right thing), but I would mentally punish myself for being a part of the situation because of my independent belief that abortion is just… heartbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/528 "2015-08-16T19:42:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > This is basically the pro-choice position I take. If it’s legal to kill someone who is in your house without your consent, it damn well should be legal to kill someone that is in your uterus without your consent. Is it legal to kill your child that’s in your house without your consent? If not legal, is it morally OK? ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/529 "2015-08-16T19:42:12Z")
> [@nate](#): > > I realize I’m in the minority here, but for such a scientifically-leaning place I would think there would be more condemnation of abortion. I almost get the feeling that just because you guys don’t like the solutions or consequences, you guys try to deny there is anything wrong with abortion though semantics of what you consider to be a human being. It reminds me of global warming deniers… they don’t like the thought of paying more for energy or changing the way they live, so they really want the science to be wrong and won’t accept consensus. Pro-choices think of the consequences of limiting abortions (loss of women’s rights, orphanage, etc.) so they deny that we are actually killing human beings. I know it’s human nature to do this and I’m not above that, but I’ve tried really hard over the last couple of years to convince myself that my previous position of being pro-choice was correct and moral and I just can’t do it. … Possibly, in this lengthy thread, I’ve missed a post in which you discuss this, but: When you changed your position on choice, did you also change your position on in vitro fertilization (and related procedures)? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/530 "2015-08-16T19:54:05Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > As you state above, your entire approach to abortion is premised on the nonexistence of the immortal soul, so unsurprisingly, those of us who disagree with your premise also disagree with the conclusion. But that reduces it to a religious argument, in which case no one’s values or beliefs are better than anyone else’s. It would make the pro-choice argument a case of religious oppression, no different from compelling someone to attend services or tithe to a faith they do not actually believe in. Also, factually wrong: the pro-choice approach is not entirely premised on the non-existence of the soul. It is, instead, largely premised on the individual rights of women to maintain sovereignty over their own bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/531 "2015-08-16T20:02:13Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > I hate saying this, but though I’m 100% Pro-Choice, I can’t describe how awful I would feel if I impregnated a woman who chose to get an abortion. . . . because of my independent belief that abortion is just… heartbreaking. This is a viewpoint which I believe most pro-choice advocates can entirely respect. It’s part of the “strategic triad” of the pro-choice movement: keep abortion legal, safe, and rare. The single best way to reduce the number of abortions is by promotion of contraception. No one (I’m open to finding an exception, but I know of none) is actually “pro-abortion.” You have worked out the overall moral calculus and come to a pro-choice conclusion, but there’s no reason on earth you should have to enjoy it. Difficult decisions are often heartbreaking. (A friend of mine is about to lose his father, who, in hospice, has chosen to stop taking food. The father, very very sick, has chosen this way to die. No one loves this, but no one can reasonably argue against it. What sort of monster would use the force of law to compel this man to endure life-support, and a hideous death from advanced disease, on a “pro-life” stance?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/532 "2015-08-16T20:06:57Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > My infertility taught me that miscarriages happen, and honestly no one but the parents give a damn about a wanted baby that doesn’t happen because your body said “nope” during the first three months. If those were children, many of us would have lost many many children - I couldn’t reconcile that and retain my sanity. Modern living makes people soft! In the good old days, half your children died before the age of 10, as God wanted! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/533 "2015-08-16T20:16:52Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > Unless you feel that a fetus is somehow comparable to a murderer sentenced to death, I do not see the point you are making. There are multiple categories of human beings that can be (arguably) legally killed. Convicted murderers could be one, unwanted fetuses another. I don’t have to say the two are similar, just that they have something in common. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/534 "2015-08-16T20:22:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This is a viewpoint which I believe most pro-choice advocates can entirely respect. It’s part of the “strategic triad” of the pro-choice movement: keep abortion legal, safe, and rare. The single best way to reduce the number of abortions is by promotion of contraception. > > No one (I’m open to finding an exception, but I know of none) is actually “pro-abortion.” You have worked out the overall moral calculus and come to a pro-choice conclusion, but there’s no reason on earth you should have to enjoy it. Difficult decisions are often heartbreaking. > > (A friend of mine is about to lose his father, who, in hospice, has chosen to stop taking food. The father, very very sick, has chosen this way to die. No one loves this, but no one can reasonably argue against it. What sort of monster would use the force of law to compel this man to endure life-support, and a hideous death from advanced disease, on a “pro-life” stance?) Of course I agree completely, and I’ve said just this many times, but it doesn’t seem to matter how often anyone says it, the logic falls on deaf ears. But on your last paragraph, and specifically “What sort of monster would use the force of law to compel this man to endure life-support, and a hideous death from advanced disease, on a ‘pro-life’ stance?”. The answer is: **exactly the same sort of monster that universally opposes abortion in all circumstances**. The commonality is the religious and/or ideological dogma that “all life is sacred, no matter what” irrespective of any and all actual circumstances, which to my mind is not just disturbingly barbaric, but is an insult to the very nature of meaningful sentient life. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/535 "2015-08-17T00:09:10Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > This is basically the pro-choice position I take. If it’s legal to kill someone who is in your house without your consent, it damn well should be legal to kill someone that is in your uterus without your consent. Ibn Warraq mentioned how wrong the “if” part of your statement is; I’d just like to remind you that reading the thread before posting would have shown you the several posts in which I debunked this idea, complete with cites. There are excellent arguments that killing a fetus in your own uterus is fundamentally different from killing a person in your house. Which is a damned good thing for pro-choicers, because if they were relevantly similar, abortion would be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/536 "2015-08-17T00:16:04Z")
I am entirely convinced that the issue of the legality of abortion rests solely on one’s determination of whether a woman has a right to do anything with her body as she pleases. The personhood of the fetus is fully trumped by the woman’s right to choose. It is no longer relevant, neither is our disapprobation. I may dislike the choices some people make - particularly in relation to late-term abortions, but that shouldn’t trump a woman’s right to choose. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/537 "2015-08-17T04:52:57Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > I am entirely convinced that the issue of the legality of abortion rests solely on one’s determination of whether a woman has a right to do anything with her body as she pleases. The personhood of the fetus is fully trumped by the woman’s right to choose. It is no longer relevant, neither is our disapprobation. I may dislike the choices some people make - particularly in relation to late-term abortions, but that shouldn’t trump a woman’s right to choose. That is a clear enough statement. Now could you give us your reasons? After all, if you are saying that the rights of one person are fully trumped by the rights of another, you are making an argument against the equality of human rights - at least on the face of it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/538 "2015-08-17T05:20:48Z")
Well, yes, it’s pretty obvious that “equal rights” is a bad argument to apply to fetuses and embryos. To begin with, they aren’t counted in the census. Do you really argue that they should be? ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/539 "2015-08-17T05:42:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, yes, it’s pretty obvious that “equal rights” is a bad argument to apply to fetuses and embryos. To begin with, they aren’t counted in the census. Do you really argue that they should be? If you are saying that the fetus is a person, I believe you must at least make a solid case for why you want to deny them equal rights. “They are not counted in the census” strikes me as rather weak in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/540 "2015-08-17T06:37:31Z")
We don’t afford “equal rights” to persons who are not competent. A fetus does not have legal competence. People with severe mental retardation are not allowed to vote, and their ability to own property is also severely limited. Do you think this is a violation of “equal rights?” People who have lost their mental functioning due to accidents or disease are not allowed to exercise “equal rights.” In any case, the point is not so much that the fetus is “not equal.” It’s that it is dependent for its existence on someone else, and that other person may not want to give this support. The pro-choice viewpoint is that it is worse to compel a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy than to abort a fetus, especially in the early stages. (You are a fully-fledged, adult, competent, legal human being in every sense – but if you were suddenly absolutely dependent on my bloodstream for your survival, I would cut you off. Sorry, but you don’t have the right to exist as a dependent on my body. So even if the fetus had absolute equal status…too bad. Get out.) The “early stage/later stage” compromise could be a functional win/win for our society, but the hard-core pro-life community refuses to engage with it. ETA: I am on the bone marrow donor registry…but that’s my choice. No one has a right to my bone marrow, even to save their lives, but I’m willing to donate it. I give birthday presents to my friends, too, but they don’t have a “right” to such gifts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326.md?page=28)