I think I may be changing to an anti abortion (pro life) stance

Well, actually, to be completely honest I do have some small degree of bias or attitude here. I’m sure that admitting that might cause some people to take that comment out of context. My main problem is with the concept itself, that it is an unborn child that will not have a chance to live. I would never ever use some of the harsh language that some pro life people use. There are things about the subject that bother me however.

For some people, it seems like they have no more concern about abortion or terminating a pregnancy than they do about reading the first 10 pages of a book and then returning the book to the library. I know, in reality, no one is going to treat an unborn child growing inside of them with that much callous disregard. I am saying that in these debates, “It’s a woman’s body!”, “It’s her decision”, “What place does a man have to say about this issue”. Such statements do not indicate a very great deal of concern about the topic.

I read 3 of the stories at random. They made me very sad. Stories like that are part of the reason why I am an Atheist. I hold no blame or judgement for anyone who would terminate a pregnancy under such circumstances. As to the other stories/web pages about the mothers health, I am allways on the side of the mothers health. 100% of the time.

We don’t need to indicate a great deal of concern about the fetus. It’s up to the individual pregnant woman to decide on her own level of concern.

Earlier I asked you what comprised a moral subject. You pretty completely dodged the question. Here are some criteria that I think are helpful:
-Can the entity think about itself?
-Can it communicate using language?
-Can it perceive others?
-Can it experience pain?
-Can it experience pleasure?
-Is it interested in its surroundings?
-Can it plan?
-Does it have a sense of identity over time?
-Does it remember things?
-Does it think about what might happen?

The more of these things an entity does, the more I’m willing to grant it the status of a moral subject. Rocks, no. Cows, a little. Toddlers, totally.

Infants? I think we have an extremely strong social interest in treating infants like moral subjects, even though there’s little they do that a cow doesn’t do. And even if we don’t treat infants as moral subjects, their parents are, as are the other adults that surround them, and few things are as agonizing to most adult humans as knowing up close about an infant’s suffering.

Embryos prior to 20 weeks? I believe there’s no strong evidence that they can do any of these things. There’s no real reason to grant them moral subjecthood than there is to grant it to a carrot.

Yes, thank you, but not an equivalent blob. A newly fertilized egg, for one thing, doesn’t post opinions on the Internet. While it’s possible that I may have at some point been criticized as “a shapeless amorphous blob with no brain”, I assure you that such a comment would have been meant figuratively and not literally! :smiley:

“Respond” how? Plants respond to light, and even the simplest organisms respond to various primitive stimuli. Much of this is the same kind of imaginary thinking that led Terry Schiavo’s parents and “pro-life supporters” to imagine that she was responding to being spoken to, or having her hand held. Until the autopsy after her death showed that her brain had atrophied to a non-functional condition. The emotional projection by those who loved her was understandable, and I don’t mean to sound cruel, but it was still purely imaginary wishful thinking.

There is no point at which any identifiable “magical” thing happens, but birth is the point that the baby takes its first breath and becomes incontrovertibly a separate being independent of its mother’s body. It’s usually a legal demarcation point only because the law sometimes has to draw these lines in order to establish clear policy.

I know it’s a serious question. It’s the question at the heart of the abortion debate. Most rational, evidence-based attempts to answer it center on the question of higher-level brain function and perhaps sentience, although the former remains interpretively subjective and the latter perhaps impossible to assess. The issue isn’t what I personally believe because someone else will believe something different, and no amount of technical expertise will resolve it, although it can help to inform the moral judgments. The issue is what to do when such a question cannot be morally, philosophically, and scientifically resolved to some definite stage of development. The anti-abortionists declare that the consequence should be that abortions should never be allowed at any stage, for the protection of God’s miracle, or something, even to the point of prohibiting abortions at a ridiculously early stage. Whereas the pro-choice argument is characterized by its name: with no possible objective resolution, keep legal dictum out of it, because dogmatically motivated irrationality on this matter has real and direct human cost on real live human beings.

I understand the emotion around abortion, I really do. I understand the emotion around a miscarriage, even at a very early stage where many actually go unnoticed. “What might have been” is emotionally powerful – my use of the phrase comes from John Greenleaf Whittier, “For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these ‘It might have been’.” Very true, and very moving. But as a basis for abrogating the real rights of real people, it’s entirely emotional and/or dogmatically religious, and in no way rational. And it’s the only argument the anti-abortionists have.

Look, I’m not dodging any questions, in fact, I believe, that I said before the points you brought up were very good, both then and now. You haven’t said anything in this entire thread that I completely disagree except for one exception. In fact, most of what you said I actually completely agree with, at least I think all your rebuttals are valid and worth thinking about, as well as being well stated and an important distinction to keep in mind.

What I disagree with, then and now, is your assessment that the pro life side is not logical. I will add to that, that over this whole thread, all the discussion is being based from an A Prior POV, people are employing logic and rhetoric to support their own position. This is a situation in which your basic belief will determine (most likely) what you consider logical or not logical. So, while I agree that the points you listed here are all valid (and insightful) as well as your points before… there are plenty of people here on the pro-life side who are far more articulate than I am, there is some very good discussion from both sides of the issue over the last couple of pages of this thread.

But whether something is considered “logical” still boils down to the POV that a person brings to the conversation.

And that is the reason why I switched back to a Pro Choice stance. It can’t be proven conclusively with “logic” what constitutes a human being. But to dismiss, out of hand, the Pro Life position as “illogical” is a mistake and does not give credit to a very serious, very hard to dismiss, very complex problem.

I can’t say as how my attitudes have changed much over time. I’ve always thought it was a more important moral priority that sex NOT be polarized in such a way that it represents a threat to female people (because this polarizes males and females against each other); and that women NOT ever be faced with involuntary continuation of pregnancy (that’s just fucking creepy).

I think that embryos are alive and human and I am OK with describing abortion as “killing”. I don’t feel the need for euphemisms. But I think being a pregnant woman puts a person into a unique situation. You are simultaneously one person with a pregnant body and two people; neither reality makes the other incorrect. And I think women in that situation inherently have the authority — let’s say situation-given but kindly provide that phrase with the same weight and dignity as “God-given” — to make life or death decisions. Such a woman is potentially bringing life into this world. No one is in a better position than she to evaluate priorities and decide whether or not to do so. If someone were to take this life away from her and end it without her consent that would constitute a horrible violation of her authority. If someone were to prevent her from ending this life and choosing NOT to bring it into this world, and force her to remain pregnant involuntarily, that would be equally bad, horrible and nightmarish in an equivalent way.

We give male people the authority to end life under various circumstances. (To be sure, we give female people in identical situations the same authority but historically those situations have been situations that primarily males were placed in to begin with: being a soldier, defending one’s self if attacked, executing a convicted criminal who has committed a capital offense, etc). I often wonder if there is a horror attached to women having abortions simply because some folks just can’t accept women possessing that kind of authority.

I think some individual abortions could indeed be conceptualized as murder. They would be reprehensibly wrong. The point is, the best arbiter of such decisions is her, the pregnant person. She always has the most to gain and the most to lose and is the most fully involved person in the process.

Um, I beg to differ. I would say that that “alive and human” embryo has the most to gain and the most to lose.

…therefore before they reach the ability to do these things, it’s OK to kill them. Even while knowing if you didn’t intervene to end it they’d be doing these things shortly. Meaning it’s OK if you kill the pre-human that is going to be a human before it becomes that human. I just don’t think that’s right and it sounds barbaric to me. To me, that’s no different than killing a fellow human because they were being an inconvenience to me.

I appreciate your honest reply. However, my hypothetical scenario about infanticide isn’t really hypothetical at all. It is still practiced in parts of the 3rd world especially in China and India where parents don’t know if their new child will be a son or a daughter. Infant daughters are sometimes killed shortly after birth for being the wrong sex at the wrong place and time. I don’t believe that newborn infants are significantly more self-aware than fetuses a couple of months earlier. What is the difference between killing a newborn and a late-term fetus?

Even in the U.S., people are sometimes convicted of murder for abandoning a newborn and it to die even though other people can schedule an appointment for at roughly the same stage of development for a medically induced death with no penalty. How does that work out philosophically.

That is what I mean when I say that it is intellectually and philosophically bankrupt. It isn’t because I am against the result. It is that the most common arguments for it cannot stand up to any rudimentary scrutiny. My wish is that people would just admit that sometimes the lesser of two evils is the best option available. I would also love for them to abandon the ‘it’s my my body and I will do what I want to…do what I want to’ because it is frankly retarded and not true for anyone in any context, let alone this one.

Q. How did they cook the chicken at the pro-life fundraiser?
A. Sunny side up.

Just because you can’t see the difference between potential and reality doesn’t mean there’s no difference there. Treating entities that change over time according to their current state is a basic fact of human life. My daughters will one day be adults, but that doesn’t mean that I hand them the keys to the car before they’ve entered first grade. My parents will one day die, but I’m not going to bury them in the ground today.

Once a human being reaches a certain state of personhood, it’s necessary to treat her as a person. Prior to that point, whether she’s a blastocyte or a separated sperm and egg or a twinkle in her daddy’s eye, it’s not necessary.

Robert, I never said that the “pro-life position” was illogical. I said that your position was illogical.

Left Hand of Dorkness
Yeah, ok, so what specifically is the difference between the two?

Well, in one case they’re inside the body of another person who doesn’t want them there, and in the other they’re not inside of anyone.

Heck, even if a fetus was by any measure a fully-formed adult in miniature, it could still be in the body of another person who doesn’t want them there.

and how did they get there?

Let’s assume we both know how babies are made. Now explain the relevance.

Honestly, I think what I consider relevant, and what you consider relevant, are already well understood.

So let’s try another question. For the sake of simplicity we will leave any legal distinctions out of the situation. Suppose a woman gets pregnant unexpectedly from a a one night hook up with someone she knows but does not know that well. There are no problems apart from the unexpected pregnancy. The man learns from a friend of a friend in their mutual social circle that the woman wants to terminate the pregnancy. The man offers to completely cover 100% of expense for the child and will adopt the child once born and take care of and raise the child. Assume the man is decent and responsible and financially sound.

Exactly how wrong would the woman be if she terminates the pregnancy against the man’s wishes?

I realize, of course, this is a loaded and dramatic question but I still think the question is relevant.

Not wrong at all, because it’s her body that would be used for this transaction. Being required to offer your body for someone else’s gain just because they have money and want to spend it on you is slavery. Pregnancy isn’t some notional thing where the woman goes on with her life as normal and then eventually a baby appears. It’s a physical thing that happens to and in her body, which can disrupt her life or even kill her. She’s entirely right to choose not to go through it even if a man promises to give her money.

(Also, I’m pretty sure child custody laws don’t work that way. She could easily end up paying court-mandated child support against his wishes. For example, if his financial situation takes a turn for the worse and he applies for some kind of assistance, the state will come after her without his permission. This happens sometimes in extralegal sperm donation, where the mother ends up needing food stamps later in life and the state never saw the sperm donor as anything other than the legal father.)

Not even 1/2 of 1/2 of 1% wrong?

Um, I beg to differ. I would say that that “alive and human” embryo has the most to gain and the most to lose.
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Point taken. Of those who can be consulted, she has the most to gain and the most to lose and is the most fully involved person in the process.

The embryo can’t be consulted, any more than a baby could after being born. Generally speaking, she’s the one people would turn to to decide on behalf of the baby. In the case of pregnancy and the question of abortion, she is of course directly concerned with what is in her own best interests, and not just what is in the best interests of the embryo. That’s the entire point: she is uniquely involved with both of those lives; she is in fact both of those lives, she’s in the process of bringing the other life into existence and it is also / still at this point a part of herself.

So why can’t she kill the baby after it is born? After all, after the baby is born, “of those who can be consulted, she has the most to gain and the most to lose and is the most fully involved person in the process”.

And what exactly is the point of “consultation”? “Baby, would you prefer to die or stay alive”?

And yet if she decides to kill the baby, the decision will be taken out of her hands (hopefully in time).

Once the baby is born she can legally abandon involvement with it without having to kill it. Also, by then she’s had the opportunity to make a decision. If it were up to me, infants would be pronounced alive by their mothers, not by doctors.

I had a great-grandmother who allegedly used to say “I brung you into this world and if you don’t mind what I’m telling you I’m gonna take you back out of it”. But no, I don’t think mothers should have a right to infanticide. The baby once born is no longer also and simultaneously a part of her body.