# I think I'm actually kinda okay with Messiaen. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 6, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467 "2014-12-06T02:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/21 "2014-12-08T17:51:44Z")
Messaien’s _Quatuor pour la fin du temps_ (_Quartet for the End of Time_ is one of my favorite works. It’s quite a bit different from the _Turangalila_, most notably in scale (for a quartet of clarinet, violin, cello and piano), but you can tell it’s the same composer. The quartet was composed (and premiered) while Messaien was a prisoner in a POW camp in Germany during WWII. I saw an amazing performance of it last summer at the Marlboro Music Festival - the first time I’ve ever heard it live. The solo clarinet movement is absolutely haunting live. If you get a chance to see it performed, go for it. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/22 "2014-12-08T18:08:51Z")
I’ve been to a performance of Turangalila by the Montreal Symphony Orchestra, and there will be another performance in a few months, this time by the local university orchestra. I guess seeing it live is only a twice-in-a-lifetime event. Love that Ondes Martenot. I’ve seen numerous performances of _Quatuor pour la fin du temps_ here in Montreal. It looks like Montreal is a city that really loves Messiaen. ---
**Author:** ![Moe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moe/32/2972_2.png) [@Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moe)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/23 "2014-12-08T22:25:56Z")
Thanks to the OP for posting this. I’m really enjoying this piece. (halfway through it so I figured I’d take a quick pause to post). Messiaen is one of those composers that I’d come across every now and again and always think, “man I gotta hear some more of that” and never quite get around to it for some reason. I just finished listening to the 5th movement and it’s definitely the most tonal movement so far, with the main themes sounding jazzy or even show-tune-y. Incidentally, on that note (heh), to the OP or others who aren’t quite sure about this tonal-atonal distinction, despite how it sounds from the words themselves, “atonal” and “tonal” are not opposites. Tonality can be talked about by degree. Atonality is the conscious (and in the case of serialism, systematic) avoidance of tonality. This piece is not atonal, but it’s also not (really) tonal. ---
**Author:** ![Moe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moe/32/2972_2.png) [@Moe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moe)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/24 "2014-12-08T22:30:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > To me–I know this is going to sound weird–but a lot of my appreciation for jazz and contemporary classical like this came from watching Tom & Jerry cartoons. There were some pretty weird, far-out scores, and those kind of prepped me musically for this type of music. Dude, get out! I’ve made the exact same association, not just with cartoons, but specifically Tom & Jerry. I’ve mentioned this many times over the years in various conversations but I don’t think I’ve ever heard it from someone else. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/25 "2014-12-08T22:33:18Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > That makes perfect sense. True story: I attended a piano recital featuring Dvorak’s works. The woman I attended with commented that she didn’t particularly like or get Dvorak. I said “just imagine Bugs Bunny getting chased down the stairs.” A few minutes into one piece, she gave me this big elbow and a smile. Get Dvorak? What’s there to get? It’s pretty bog standard mid-19th-century Romanticism (with a Slavic twist). I like Dvorak, but he’s not particularly difficult. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/26 "2014-12-08T23:03:19Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Get Dvorak? What’s there to get? It’s pretty bog standard mid-19th-century Romanticism (with a Slavic twist). I like Dvorak, but he’s not particularly difficult. While it’s not true now from an adult perspective, when I was a kid, studying and playing Dvorak on the piano, it was pretty “weird” music to me in a way that Chopin, Liszt, Schumann, and other Romantics weren’t. So it doesn’t sound to me particularly weird for some people to consider Dvorak odd. To me, Dvorak was a bridge from Romanticism to Contemporary/Modern classical music in the way that Beethoven was a bridge from Classical to Romantic. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/27 "2014-12-08T23:08:25Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > That would miss the point. There is a composer by the name of David Cope who has been developing AI music composition systems for many years. By now, his programs are quite good at imitating the style of many famous composers, and I’m sure they’d fool many if not most people. Judge for yourself: > [AI Vivaldi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kuY3BrmTfQ) . . . I believe I can tell the difference…but, wow, that is VERY close! That’s extremely pretty. I fall back on my caveat: this is more a tribute to the sheer power (and finesse!) of computing than to anything else. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/28 "2014-12-09T01:07:08Z")
> [@EmilyG](#): > > It looks like Montreal is a city that really loves Messiaen. There’s a little bit of that, but it’s mostly because the Montreal Symphony Orchestra’s conductor, Kent Nagano is a pupil of Messiaen. He even lived at the composer’s house for a while. When he landed his job with the MSO, the first piece they played was Messiaen’s _Éclairs sur l’au-delà_. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/29 "2014-12-09T13:35:10Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > Get Dvorak? What’s there to get? It’s pretty bog standard mid-19th-century Romanticism (with a Slavic twist). I like Dvorak, but he’s not particularly difficult. Wait, wait, wait - there could be another reason: It could be…because I am an idiot!! Where you see _Dvorak_, please substitute _ **Bartok** _. :smack: :smack: :smack: That’s what I get for dashing off this post while watching Monday Night Football. We saw some piano concertos and bagatelle’s and some had some fun, tinkly atonality marching up and down the keyboard. Oy, what a maroon. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/30 "2014-12-09T13:50:58Z")
Ah, well that makes even more sense. That said, Dvorak is, for me as a kid, where things started getting different. By Bartok, it was sufficiently weird, like in _Mikrokosmos_ (which starts with technically very easy pieces), being written in key signatures with both sharps and flats or sharps in odd places. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/31 "2014-12-09T14:10:02Z")
> [@Moe](#): > > Dude, get out! I’ve made the exact same association, not just with cartoons, but specifically Tom & Jerry. I’ve mentioned this many times over the years in various conversations but I don’t think I’ve ever heard it from someone else. Yeah, Tom & Jerry is responsible for my love of Liszt (particularly, of course, Hungarian Rhapsody #2) and much of my initial interest in jazz (the “Is You Is or Is You Ain’t My Baby” episode being one of the most memorable). We didn’t really have that kind of music generally playing around the house. And then they had the really funky psychedelic sounds when they shifted over to that Eastern European animation( or whatever it was) in the later episodes (I’m guessing somewhere around the 1960s–the “mouse in space” type episodes). The silly amounts of cartoon violence had no effect on me, but the music did. 🙂 I’m not sure why I particularly keened in on Tom & Jerry. Other cartoons had wonderful orchestral accompaniment and scores, too, but T&J was the one most influential to me. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/32 "2014-12-10T01:28:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Just an interjection: this is the same thing I’ve written about various types of heavy metal music. It can take some time to become educated about the structure, voicings, tone, etc. of certain genres of metal. It takes familiarity through exposure before most people can appreciate CMVs and blast beats and atonal riffing, etc. But once you are educated and familiar, whooo boy there’s a whole shitload of great music waiting for you. So much this. I think the way I approached heavy metal actually prepped me for my descent into the bowels of modern classical, honestly. It took me _ages_ to “get” songs like [Slaves Shall Serve](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17wpGuDBgmM) or [Skeksis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjVT0MhSNeo). Just like it took me ages to “get” pieces like this symphony. (The booze probably didn’t hurt either 😃 ) > [@](#): > > In fact, some day I’ll make the case here on the Dope for my belief that much of what is called punk rock is really jazz. I would damn near pay money to hear that. ---
**Author:** ![Waterman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Waterman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waterman)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/33 "2014-12-11T09:44:10Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > [Ondes Martenot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondes_Martenot) it looks like. You get a better look at it at around 8:30 in the video. BTW - thanks for the information! ---
**Author:** ![Achren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@Achren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achren)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/34 "2014-12-12T00:27:10Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > [Ondes Martenot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondes_Martenot) it looks like. You get a better look at it at around 8:30 in the video. Huh, I’d just thought it was pure synth/electronic stuff in these songs, or in the case of “How to Disappear Completely” strings run through some effect. Neat stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/35 "2014-12-12T08:49:48Z")
> [@Moe](#): > > … This piece is not atonal, but it’s also not (really) tonal. I always think of it (and many other Messiaen pieces) as modal. His music sounds weird because he uses his strange modes of limited transposition very frequently [http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modes\_of\_limited\_transposition](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modes_of_limited_transposition). > [@WordMan](#): > > Where you see _Dvorak_, please substitute _ **Bartok** _. > > :smack: :smack: :smack: Ah, I used to make the same mistake all the time 😉 ! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/36 "2014-12-12T13:35:57Z")
> [@Achren](#): > > Huh, I’d just thought it was pure synth/electronic stuff in these songs, or in the case of “How to Disappear Completely” strings run through some effect. Neat stuff. Check out [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy9UBjrUjwo) of the player explaining it. That instrument makes some killer expressive sounds in skilled hands. I particularly like the “tutti” stop around 4:00 that gives a very cello/string-like texture. Love that you can shake the keys to produce vibrato, as well. Very interesting, especially for something invented in the first half of the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/37 "2014-12-12T14:40:57Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Check out [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy9UBjrUjwo) of the player explaining it. That instrument makes some killer expressive sounds in skilled hands. I particularly like the “tutti” stop around 4:00 that gives a very cello/string-like texture. Love that you can shake the keys to produce vibrato, as well. Very interesting, especially for something invented in the first half of the 20th century. Yes. The theremin gets all the love and fame because it’s more compact and mostly just plain weird, but in terms of playability and expressiveness the ondes martenot is wonderful. Anyone interested in early electronic instruments should also check out Oskar Sala’s [Trautonium](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaWrdbvhg1Q) and the soviet [ANS synthesizer](http://youtu.be/gM4O593Pzm4?t=4m17s) which allowed the user to _draw_ sounds. It was the descendent of early experiments using [optical sound synthesis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiIB36ZY0WM). The invention of the theremin, ondes martenot, trautonium and the soviet optical sound experiments, as well as similar work in Germany all happened almost simultaneously in 1928-1929. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/38 "2014-12-12T15:05:29Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Ah, I used to make the same mistake all the time 😉 ! I know, right? 😉 Slight hijack, because cool musical instruments discussion. I actually know where a Theremin-built Theremin is for sale: [http://www.retrofret.com/products.asp?ProductID=5165](http://www.retrofret.com/products.asp?ProductID=5165) Is that cool or what?! I have seen it a few times, but not asked to “play” it - I tax their patience enough with guitars as it is (do NOT check out their guitar inventory if you don’t want to see drool-worthy guitars - the shop is known for having quality stuff at the higher end of pricing for vintage guitars - they are known for great inventory and the best workshop in the area so you pay a bit for that). I want to say I have heard the Theremin was going for ~$75,000 but don’t quote me on that. Also, when I was there last time, there was another instrument I got to see - the owner had been tracking it for 25 years - one of the earliest known synthesizers (i.e., electricity-based tone generation). It was from the early 1900’s and used alternating current to excite tuning forks electro-magnetically at the depression of button switches. It wasn’t functioning but they were getting on that. Just amazing. Carry on! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/39 "2014-12-12T15:45:59Z")
After reading up on the Ondes Martenot and watching a couple of videos, I gotta get me one, or at least an Ondèa. I have 2 Theremins (a cheap kit one I built and a slightly-not-cheap one I bought used) and they are fucking difficult to play; the Ondèa looks much easier and actually seems to be more versatile than the Theremin. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2014, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467/40 "2014-12-13T07:23:30Z")
One bit of Bartók that sounds like cartoon music is in the _Concerto for Orchestra_, in the movement “Intermezzo Interrotto.” In the “interruption,” woodwinds and brass sound just like something out of _Tom & Jerry_, whose composer was Scott Bradley. In fact, Bradley was a Bartók fan and was influenced by him, and apparently the _Concerto for Orchestra_, composed while Bartók lived in America, returned the compliment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-im-actually-kinda-okay-with-messiaen/706467.md?page=1)