# I think Ron Paul could pull it off **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 15, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343 "2011-12-15T21:37:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/41 "2011-12-16T19:35:57Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > _Really?_ You’d rather have the guy who thinks he should be allowed to have you assassinated without any form of oversight than the guy who is too naive? > > I think Paul would be a good influence, precisely because I don’t think he’d get his own way all the time. He’d be a restraining influence on your government, and should rein in its more abhorrent ideas, like imprisoning people indefinitely without trial. But “an American citizen assassinating neo-con” didn’t get a _Really?_ from you. That one you felt was a realistic appraisal of the other candidates. Let’s say worst-case scenario. Let’s say it really is a contest between an American citizen assassinating neo-con and a real Libertarian and they’re the only two candidates. You know what? I’d vote for the neo-con. Sure, he’s going to kill some people and probably start another war. But he’ll at least keep the country running. The Libertarian will shut down the government, ruin the country, and we’ll have a complete collapse that’ll end up killing more people than the neo-con administration would have. Libertarians of course are screaming, “The country won’t collapse! We’re Libertarians not Anarchists! Don’t you people get it!” I understand what Libertarians claim. But I also understand what neo-cons claim. And I understand the difference between claims and results. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/42 "2011-12-16T20:21:19Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > And here is the quote from his website on taxation: > …He absolutely believes that we can cut the federal government enough to not need income taxation. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, Paul not only opposes the Fed, [he opposes fractional-reverse banking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Ron_Paul#Inflation_and_the_Federal_Reserve) (also known as “banking”) as such. That by itself should be enough to exclude him from serious consideration. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Ron Paul is contradicting Ron Paul on a lot of things these days. If his current platform does in fact call for retaining the current tax system in large part, …We could eliminate the income tax, replace it with nothing, and still fund the same level of big government we had in the late 1990s."\* > > Sure, Ron. Explain that one to us in detail. > > [Kimberly Strassel in today’s Wall St. Journal](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204026804577100730656321606.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop) notes other areas which, if not precisely flip-flops constitute a marked softening of Ron Paul’s stated positions in order to gain mainstream support (including reassuring parents that he won’t eliminate student loans at least in the short term, and toning down calls to legalize drugs). What Strassel thinks makes his nomination as the GOP candidate impossible are his foreign policy views, including that doozy about how the U.S. has “provoked” Iran to develop nuclear weapons. That type of thing is a killer, especially among the right-wingers who dominate the GOP primaries. > > Even more of a killer would be a perception of Ron as shifting positions to gain primary voter support, a la Mitt Romney. Once that happens, the gung-ho Ron Paul base will start drifting away. > > _"“The government should never have the power to require immunizations or vaccinations.”_ - Ron Paul SHHHH!!! Keep it under your hat until he gets the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/43 "2011-12-16T20:32:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You know what? I’d vote for the neo-con. > > Sure, he’s going to kill some people and probably start another war. But he’ll at least keep the country running. The Libertarian will shut down the government, ruin the country, and we’ll have a complete collapse that’ll end up killing more people than the neo-con administration would have. Well, on the merits like these who has a slightest chance of bursting your bubble? I mean, seriously, “a Government shutdown” would kill more people than neo-cons? Really? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/44 "2011-12-16T20:48:01Z")
What Ron Paul believes and what he sees as a practical way to get there are two completely different things. I’m sure you all know this. Whether you believe it is a practical way to get there is up for debate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/45 "2011-12-16T20:51:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What Ron Paul believes and what he sees as a practical way to get there are two completely different things. I’m sure you all know this. Whether you believe it is a practical way to get there is up for debate. So is the value of getting there. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/46 "2011-12-16T21:26:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So is the value of getting there. Yeah I knew that was coming. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/47 "2011-12-16T22:53:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > **I think Ron Paul could pull it off** What, his Fountainhead? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/48 "2011-12-16T23:07:20Z")
Besides the fact that a Paul nomination would have the White House popping the champagne corks, and the Daily Show writing staff saying “Thank you Jesus,” it would also save big business a lot of money. Because while some CEOs would no doubt love removing all regulations, they also know that eliminating or hamstringing the Fed would do a hell of a lot more damage to their bottom line the the EPA and OSHA ever could. Their education in finance did not consist of dissecting cadavers. I suspect if Paul did get nominated there would be a third party race by what passes for a rational Republican, supported by nearly all the leaders of the party. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/49 "2011-12-17T00:06:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What Ron Paul believes and what he sees as a practical way to get there are two completely different things. So he’s bullshitting us for personal gain, just like every other politician. I am devastated. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/50 "2011-12-17T01:16:11Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Paul has a small cadre of enthusiastic supporters. The problem is that those not with him are actively hostile. People like a few libertarian policies but shy away as soon as the whole agenda is presented. This. We don’t really want to be libertarians; we want to be liberTINES… ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/51 "2011-12-17T01:19:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > This. We don’t really want to be libertarians; we want to be liberTINES… De Sade, not Von Mises! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/52 "2011-12-17T01:34:28Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Well, on the merits like these who has a slightest chance of bursting your bubble? > > I mean, seriously, “a Government shutdown” would kill more people than neo-cons? Really? No, a complete collapse would kill more people than neo-cons. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/53 "2011-12-17T01:34:56Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > De Sade, not Von Mises! 😃 Sure, I guess. I was thinking more along the lines of Jim Morrison, though… ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/54 "2011-12-17T01:38:44Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Well, on the merits like these who has a slightest chance of bursting your bubble? > > I mean, seriously, “a Government shutdown” would kill more people than neo-cons? Really? “Government shutdown,” for better or for worse, today has a meaning that implies a short-term disruption. A more useful term for your comparison would be along the lines of “Government closing-up-shop.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/55 "2011-12-17T01:54:41Z")
Does anyone else think Ron Paul looks like the dad on “'Twas the Night Before Christmas”? I thought it again during the debate last night, in which he seemed to get a lot of screen time. Libertarians (and I was one once) tend to believe that if only people understood libertarianism they would become libertarians. That it’s a matter of education to get people to come to believe. I think the opposite is true and it’s a matter of education to get people to drop it. Of course, call Paul a libertarian when you’re in a group of libertarians and you’ll find the fact that he puts gold on his porridge rules him right out. Or in. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/56 "2011-12-18T23:34:06Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > “Government shutdown,” for better or for worse, today has a meaning that implies a short-term disruption. > > A more useful term for your comparison would be along the lines of “Government closing-up-shop.” Oh, please… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/57 "2011-12-19T00:07:08Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I hope it’s not too much to ask that we can find somebody to be president who doesn’t even talk about crazy shit. Are there that few competent people who want the job that we have to settle for someone who believes crazy shit and we have to bet it’s unlikely they’ll accomplish it? Michael Moore is what passes for crazy among liberals. If you mention the latest by Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Chris Wallace, Patrick Buchanan, Bill O’Reilly, Rick Santorum, Pat Carr, Michelle Malkin or whomever, modern conservatives will invariably splutter about …poor 'ol Michael Moore. Meanwhile the Republicans face a quandary. You need to be either batshit crazy to win the nomination or be willing to fake it. But the crazies tend to peak in the polls then plummet: this is what happened to Bachmann, Perry and now Gingrich. But if you only act crazy like Romney (hallucinating claims that Obama never made for example) then your phoniness turns people off. There were lefty crazies in the 1960-70s: the draft will do that. But for the past 30 years or so they’ve been marginalized on the left just as they have gained ascendency on the right. Among Republicans in congress, half are certifiably nuts while the other half fears being primaried by the same. ---
**Author:** ![Buchanan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Buchanan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buchanan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/58 "2011-12-19T03:20:27Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ron Paul is a crank. If he successfully transplants his hard money inflationistas into the Federal Reserve, a lost decade would become a certainty. [Elaboration](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/opinion/gop-monetary-madness.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss). > > [More elaboration](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/inflation-predictions/). > [Still more elaboration](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/speaking-of-people-whose-models-have-failed/). > > Romney may talk nonsense, but he presumably has an understanding of textbook economics and would probably re-appoint Bernanke or somebody in the same quadrant. Sure, he’ll screw up health care and probably prop his fat cat friends, but at least he’s rational, even if his party is not. > ETA: But a Ron Paul nomination would secure an Obama victory. Go Ron Go! I like how all of your “elaboration” is from the NYT and the most popular liberal economist of them all, Krugman. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/59 "2011-12-19T05:16:05Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The problem is that those not with him are actively hostile. People like a few libertarian policies but shy away as soon as the whole agenda is presented. Huh, libertarian dilletantes … …delibertantes… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343/60 "2011-12-19T05:42:55Z")
> [@Buchanan](#): > > I like how all of your “elaboration” is from the NYT and the most popular liberal economist of them all, Krugman. Buchanan does a good job of presenting the modern conservative mentality. The first link is to a newspaper column. The 2nd link quotes at length a prediction by Rondroid Peter Schiff, from Dec 2009 predicting hyperinflation. Which did not occur, but _would_ have occurred if their variant of folk economics had validity. But Buchanan can only perceive the messenger. Who he thinks is a meanie I guess. The third link presents a chart of declining commodity prices. Earlier this year rising commodity prices were taken as proof of incipient inflation. That’s fine, except when the favored measure goes in the opposite direction, Rondroids fall silent. It’s actually amusing. When the facts turn against real analysts, they reconsider. An example might be the respect Milton Friedman received when he attacked the static Phillips Curve and was proven correct. The static Phillips Curve was tossed in the dustbin and serious theorists thought harder about the problem. But when the facts go against Ron Paul Libertarians, they turn to conspiracy theories about Big Guv’s inflation statistics and the like. Anyway you are absolutely correct Buchanan. Those posts _were_ penned by scary Paul Krugman. Worse, they contain charts and facts. Krugman’s column (link 1!) captures the mentality: > [@Paul Krugman](#): > > Unfortunately, Mr. Paul has maintained his consistency by ignoring reality, clinging to his ideology even as the facts have demonstrated that ideology’s wrongness. … > > Mr. Paul identifies himself as a believer in “Austrian” economics — a doctrine that it goes without saying rejects John Maynard Keynes but is almost equally vehement in rejecting the ideas of Milton Friedman. For Austrians see “fiat money,” money that is just printed without being backed by gold, as the root of all economic evil, which means that they fiercely oppose the kind of monetary expansion Friedman claimed could have prevented the Great Depression — and which was actually carried out by Ben Bernanke this time around. … > > And there has, indeed, been a huge expansion of the monetary base. … The combined effect of these actions was that the monetary base more than tripled in size. > > Austrians, and for that matter many right-leaning economists, were sure about what would happen as a result: There would be devastating inflation. One popular Austrian commentator who has advised Mr. Paul, Peter Schiff, even warned (on Glenn Beck’s TV show) of the possibility of Zimbabwe-style hyperinflation in the near future. > > So here we are, three years later. How’s it going? Inflation has fluctuated, but, at the end of the day, consumer prices have risen just 4.5 percent, meaning an average annual inflation rate of only 1.5 percent. Who could have predicted that printing so much money would cause so little inflation? Well, I could. And did. And so did others who understood the Keynesian economics Mr. Paul reviles. But Mr. Paul’s supporters continue to claim, somehow, that he has been right about everything. Thank you **Buchanan** for providing me with the opportunity to elaborate upon this. The bit about the New York Times was especially hilarious, given their tendency to bend over backwards while pandering to delicate conservative sensibilities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-ron-paul-could-pull-it-off/606343.md?page=4)