# I think Timothy McVeigh's actions were not an entirely unreasonable reaction to Ruby Ridge and Waco. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081 "2018-08-22T23:01:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/41 "2018-08-23T15:23:58Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I think you all have: > > A) Been led astray by a hijack about moral equivalency > > B) Completely missed why McVeigh’s actions were unreasonable. > > McVeigh’s actions were unreasonable in response to Ruby Ridge and Waco. Agreed. But they were unreasonable because there was no means by which they could accomplish any useful goal. In fact, McVeigh’s actions led to an American society in which there are more and greater - but perhaps more subtle - restrictions on freedom and a more powerful, all-encompassing federal government. > > The problem with terrorists - and McVeigh was clearly a terrorist by any definition - is that most of them are romantics. They believe that by one or few specific actions they can affect change or ameliorate some real or imagined wrong in their lives and their society. Did McVeigh believe that by destroying the Murrah building in OKC that he would magically change the amount of power and authority the US government had over people’s lives? Or did he believe it would lead to a popular uprising that would thwart and restrict that power moving forward? Or was it - and wiki appears to indicate - that McVeigh was just after payback for Waco and Ruby Ridge? > > In any event, blowing up one building is an ineffective means of achieving any of those goals. It demonstrates McVeigh’s irrationality - or lack of ability to think an issue through - that he might believe any of those would help. > > Now, in his bio, McVeigh says he also contemplated direct assassination of Janet Reno instead of blowing up the Murrah Building. This, indeed, could have sent a clearer message with less dead children. It would have directly connected his issue with the actions he took. I’m in no way advocating assassination but it would have been a clearer line. And the line between the decisions made at Ruby Ridge and Waco are in no way influenced by a bunch of dead people in OKC. > > Doesn’t mean it would have worked. But it’s easier to see a vox populi chain of reasoning for it. One of the tools in the insurrectionist’s (terrorist’s if you prefer) toolbox is striking at the families of government employees. Ideally, the result is that said employees become fearful of carrying out the type of actions the insurrection opposes. Enough attacks on families, or on government employees not directly related to the objectionable actions, paralyzes the government through fear. Or so the thinking goes. McVeigh might have believed others would copy his actions. Or maybe he just wanted revenge and thought no further. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/42 "2018-08-23T15:39:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree, actually, that any civilized society should put anyone, even a McVeigh, to death. A civilized society wouldn’t give rise to people like McVeigh in the first place, if we’re going to play the “civilized” card. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/43 "2018-08-23T15:41:32Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > A civilized society wouldn’t give rise to people like McVeigh in the first place, if we’re going to play the “civilized” card. If we’re going to play the “civilized card,” by your standards has there _ever_ been a civilized society? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/44 "2018-08-23T16:13:28Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Question: why is this in GD rather than in the pit? [So the specific target audience can’t use that as an excuse to not answer.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21163203#post21163203) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/45 "2018-08-23T16:14:06Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If we’re going to play the “civilized card,” by your standards has there _ever_ been a civilized society? I’d say obviously so, McVeigh being somewhat of an outlier. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/46 "2018-08-23T16:16:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’d say obviously so, McVeigh being somewhat of an outlier. Which one or ones is it? I’m interested in which societies do not produce people like McVeigh. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/47 "2018-08-23T17:20:10Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > [So the specific target audience can’t use that as an excuse to not answer.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21163203#post21163203) He hasn’t responded yet, has he? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/48 "2018-08-23T17:24:50Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Which one or ones is it? I’m interested in which societies do not produce people like McVeigh. You’ve seemed to have confused “civilized” with “totally mind-controlled”. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/49 "2018-08-23T17:33:57Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Which one or ones is it? I’m interested in which societies do not produce people like McVeigh. All societies produce cold-blooded killers … even _The Village_ had it’s share of whack-o’s … McVeigh had lawful alternatives, speaking out and peaceably assembling with others of like mind … but that didn’t serve his desire to kill … so I’m not sure how “civilized society” comes into this … ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/50 "2018-08-23T18:00:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’ve seemed to have confused “civilized” with “totally mind-controlled”. Ekers made a statement regarding civilized societies. I’m asking for him to back that statement with an example. If you want to talk about me, start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/51 "2018-08-23T18:00:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Huh. When liberals express similar concerns, they get accused of playing identity politics. Name one liberal who has ever expressed concern (A) about Posse Comitatus specifically, or (B) overreach in general by the federal government. There might be a tiny handful, but the vast majority of liberals cheer and encourage such overreach. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/52 "2018-08-23T18:03:06Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Ekers made a statement regarding civilized societies. I’m asking for him to back that statement with an example. If you want to talk about me, start a new thread. I’m talking about your response, and I’ll be doing it here. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/53 "2018-08-23T18:04:16Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Name one liberal who has ever expressed concern (A) about Posse Comitatus specifically, or (B) overreach in general by the federal government. > > There might be a tiny handful, but the vast majority of liberals cheer and encourage such overreach. OOOOHHH!! OOOHHH!! Is it the overreach by the federal government into who people can marry, have sex with, or what they can ingest into their own bodies? Yeah, start with those. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/54 "2018-08-23T18:18:31Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Ekers made a statement regarding civilized societies. I’m asking for him to back that statement with an example. If you want to talk about me, start a new thread. Bricker actually made the first such comment. I’m confident there are a lot of countries (admittedly this is not perfectly synonymous with societies) that have never produced a terrorist with 50 or more kills to his credit. If you insist that I name a specific one, let’s try… Canada. If you know of such a Canadian terrorist, I invite illumination on the topic. Shot in the dark here, but did you think when I wrote “like McVeigh”, I meant people with right-wing political views, as opposed to mass murderers? That possible interpretation occurred to me a few minutes after your earlier post. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/55 "2018-08-23T18:26:50Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Name one liberal who has ever expressed concern (A) about Posse Comitatus specifically, or (B) overreach in general by the federal government. > > There might be a tiny handful, but the vast majority of liberals cheer and encourage such overreach. “Similar” is not “identical”, so your challenge is moot. There certainly are liberals who have petitioned and protested and become occasionally violent in response to what they perceive as governmental and unconstitutional mistreatment of others. In that limited sense, there are analogies to the behavior of Timothy McVeigh. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/56 "2018-08-23T18:29:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > OOOOHHH!! OOOHHH!! > > Is it the overreach by the federal government into who people can marry, have sex with, or what they can ingest into their own bodies? > > Yeah, start with those. I was thinking about the separation of families. > [@](#): > > [If This Isn’t Government Overreach, Then What Is?](https://www.gillibrand.senate.gov/news/press/release/as-dhs-continues-to-tear-children-away-from-their-parents-at-the-border-gillibrand-speaks-on-senate-floor-calls-on-trump-administration-to-end-cruel-family-separation-policy) - Senator Kirsten Gillibrand ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/57 "2018-08-23T18:36:26Z")
One thing you gotta think about: if your ethical approach makes it difficult for you to distinguish between tearing down a racist statue, and murdering hundreds of people in a terrorist attack, maybe you need a new ethical approach. If your ethical approach relegates all the differences between these two acts to “X, or Y, or Z conditions,” and you mock these differences as inescapably arbitrary, maybe you need a new ethical approach. If, when confronted with an apologia for the murders, you instead put your energy into sniping at an apologia for statue destruction, you guessed it: maybe you need a new ethical approach. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/58 "2018-08-23T18:45:01Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One thing you gotta think about: if your ethical approach makes it difficult for you to distinguish between tearing down a racist statue, and murdering hundreds of people in a terrorist attack, maybe you need a new ethical approach. > > If your ethical approach relegates all the differences between these two acts to “X, or Y, or Z conditions,” and you mock these differences as inescapably arbitrary, maybe you need a new ethical approach. > > If, when confronted with an apologia for the murders, you instead put your energy into sniping at an apologia for statue destruction, you guessed it: maybe you need a new ethical approach. Surely there’s an exception to that when it comes to (A) Posse Comitatus specifically, or (B) overreach in general by the federal government, surely, right? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/59 "2018-08-23T18:50:19Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Surely there’s an exception to that when it comes to (A) Posse Comitatus specifically, or (B) overreach in general by the federal government, surely, right? > > CMC fnord! crowmanyclouds, MAYBE YOU NEED A NEW ETHICAL APPROACH fnord yourself! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081/60 "2018-08-23T18:54:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > crowmanyclouds, MAYBE YOU NEED A NEW ETHICAL APPROACH > fnord yourself! 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-timothy-mcveighs-actions-were-not-an-entirely-unreasonable-reaction-to-ruby-ridge-and-waco/820081.md?page=4)