# I think we should make harvesting of organs mandatory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800 "2011-04-26T18:42:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/21 "2011-04-26T22:52:39Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > If it were only so easy to know when somebody is dead. Perhaps we could create a Panel to determine that. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/22 "2011-04-26T22:54:26Z")
The problem with viewing this as a way to “solve” the organ shortage is _not every organ is suitable for transplant_. It’s not enough to be dead, you have to be a certain sort of dead. There has to be no interruption in circulation, for example, so if someone has a heart attack, dies, and it takes a half an hour to get them to where their organs can be harvested then their organs will be useless. If someone has HIV or hepatitis or various other infections their organs will be useless. If someone survived cancer their organs at death will not be useful for transplantation. Yes, mandatory donation will increase, somewhat, the number of useful organs. It will NOT, however, be enough for everyone on the waiting list. There will be no surplus. The shortage will not be as acute, but it will continue. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/23 "2011-04-26T22:59:18Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, mandatory donation will increase, somewhat, the number of useful organs. It will NOT, however, be enough for everyone on the waiting list. There will be no surplus. The shortage will not be as acute, but it will continue. While this is IMO possibly true, I think you need a cite or some actual data to declare this either way. And of course it would likely depend on which organs we are talking about as well. Anybody have any real data on this? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/24 "2011-04-26T23:02:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, mandatory donation will increase, somewhat, the number of useful organs. It will NOT, however, be enough for everyone on the waiting list. There will be no surplus. The shortage will not be as acute, but it will continue. We _could_ just revoke the seatbelt and helmet laws and make both sides of the debate happy… ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/25 "2011-04-26T23:13:54Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Do you think that wills should be done away with in general? Funny you should mention that. I have another topic in reserve that I’ve been wanting to post, but I don’t really take a strong stand on that one. It simply asks reasons for and against having wills. I do have a bit of a problem with wills in general, but I can see how it can be used to protect the still living heirs and the person passing down the riches. I’m curious if those problems could be resolved through a vigorous debate though > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > FWIW, I am currently an organ donor, but if there were any reasonable means of opt-out\* with your system I would choose to do so, making it known to the parties that implemented such a system what the costs were. > > Also, point 2 seems to be mostly [false](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2573/can-a-person-be-buried-in-the-backyard-rather-than-a-cemetery), though it depends on the state. > > - Even if there were no explicit opt-out, there are likely to be loopholes in the process that effectively make it impossible to harvest the organs. I think point 2 is supported by the fact that there are so many restrictions on burial and different qualifications on what could be a cemetary. > [@Lightnin](#): > > I agree completely. I think that withholding your corpse from organ donation is the height of selfishness. > > However, this idea (opt-out) always goes over like a lead balloon whenever it comes up. I honestly don’t understand what the big deal is. I think people have issues with a system that makes anything automatic and one has to opt out, instead of opt in. It’s a loss of control and people I’ve spoken to like to suggest that it would be onerous for one to do so, as if we needed it to be any more complicated than paying taxes that people are forced to do already. > [@Broomstick](#): > > The problem with viewing this as a way to “solve” the organ shortage is _not every organ is suitable for transplant_. It’s not enough to be dead, you have to be a certain sort of dead. There has to be no interruption in circulation, for example, so if someone has a heart attack, dies, and it takes a half an hour to get them to where their organs can be harvested then their organs will be useless. If someone has HIV or hepatitis or various other infections their organs will be useless. If someone survived cancer their organs at death will not be useful for transplantation. > > Yes, mandatory donation will increase, somewhat, the number of useful organs. It will NOT, however, be enough for everyone on the waiting list. There will be no surplus. The shortage will not be as acute, but it will continue. I think you refuted your own argument, if I may say so. The net increase will be there, more organs will be available and thus, more lives saved by not needlessly wasting perfectly donatable organs. It may not be an organ-utopia and pancreases may not rain from the sky in a bloody, life-saving, bizarro-world version of the Egyptian plagues from the bible, but it makes much more organs available. And the cost will simply be the consternation of some dead people. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/26 "2011-04-26T23:14:48Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > One point. > > One complaint about this organ donor thingy is that some folks are afraid people will be declared dead early so that organs may be harvested. What’s the big deal? so you lose 15 minutes of unconsciousness at the end of it all? Or 15 days? I’d be willing to accept that risk. ---
**Author:** ![CPomeroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@CPomeroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CPomeroy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/27 "2011-04-26T23:21:45Z")
I am an organ donor myself, and encourage everyone else to be one also, but I am not comfortable with this proposed expansion of government authority. I do not think the greater societal good is a good metric for determining what actions to take. In other words what you should do and what you should be required by law to do are not the same thing in a free society that values the rights of the individual. Beyond certain restrictions (e.g paying your taxes), people should be free to be selfish if they so desire. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/28 "2011-04-26T23:29:02Z")
> [@CPomeroy](#): > > I am an organ donor myself, and encourage everyone else to be one also, but I am not comfortable with this proposed expansion of government authority. I do not think the greater societal good is a good metric for determining what actions to take. In other words what you should do and what you should be required by law to do are not the same thing in a free society that values the rights of the individual. Beyond certain restrictions (e.g paying your taxes), people should be free to be selfish if they so desire. I agree somewhat. I do believe in the rights of the individual, that’s why I’m for no-strings-attached suicide. However, what you are implying seems to be that the dead lose something by virtue of the government harvesting their organs. I feel that once you’re dead, the rules no longer apply. As much as I would defend a man’s right to say and do what he wanted, I would not lift a finger to help his corpse. Selfishness in life is ok, but once you’re dead you lose whatever control you have over your body. By definition, no harm can be inflicted on you anymore because you’re dead. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/29 "2011-04-26T23:40:37Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I have another topic in reserve that I’ve been wanting to post, but I don’t really take a strong stand on that one. It simply asks reasons for and against having wills. To be honest, I think wills are much less defensible than rights over my dead body. Everyone has a body, and we “own” our bodies at a much deeper level than ordinary property. Or we _should_, at any rate, IMHO. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think point 2 is supported by the fact that there are so many restrictions on burial and different qualifications on what could be a cemetary. The article says that most states have little to say about home burial, and even California (with the most onerous laws) defined a cemetery as a place with at least 6 bodies (I guess you have to save them up before burying them). I also wonder if there are any laws about displaying your Uncle Bob (presuming he’s been suitably preserved). > [@YogSosoth](#): > > I think people have issues with a system that makes anything automatic and one has to opt out, instead of opt in. It’s a loss of control and people I’ve spoken to like to suggest that it would be onerous for one to do so, as if we needed it to be any more complicated than paying taxes that people are forced to do already. That has nothing to do with it, from my perspective. As you say, there are lots of things that are onerous but are legitimate functions of the government, like tax collection (though I think taxes should be lower, of course). No, it’s about what the government considers its domain. To make a rough analogy, if my neighbor asks to borrow my chainsaw, I would be happy to let him, and I won’t even mind too much if he returns it with the tank empty. But if he takes the chainsaw without asking, it is a whole different thing, and he is not likely to remain on my good side. Even if he leaves a note in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/30 "2011-04-26T23:49:17Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > No, it’s about what the government considers its domain. To make a rough analogy, if my neighbor asks to borrow my chainsaw, I would be happy to let him, and I won’t even mind too much if he returns it with the tank empty. But if he takes the chainsaw without asking, it is a whole different thing, and he is not likely to remain on my good side. Even if he leaves a note in advance. How about if you took the chainsaw to the city dump, left it there, and he came along and grabbed it out of the pile? Would you still be bothered? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/31 "2011-04-27T00:04:08Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > How about if you took the chainsaw to the city dump, left it there, and he came along and grabbed it out of the pile? Would you still be bothered? I don’t think that’s a fair analogy. Bodies aren’t considered trash by advocates of either position. I actually don’t personally care if my carcass is dumped in a ditch or otherwise desecrated. But I don’t think anyone here is advocating that the state can do anything it wants to dead bodies. Much of the OP’s premise is effectively “you’re dead, so you can’t actually care what happens to your corpse.” So, I think a fair extension to the analogy is that your neighbor borrows your chainsaw when you aren’t home and therefore aren’t using it. Even supposing the neighbor restores the device to pristine condition after each use, would you have a problem with this? Of course, if the neighbor is very careful, then I will never find out and therefore can’t care. But it bothers me in general that this neighbor thinks its his right to use property without asking for it, and if I saw him borrowing someone else’s property, I would try to put a stop to it by informing the other parties. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/32 "2011-04-27T01:17:57Z")
After we take the useful organs, we could butcher the remainder of the corpse and ship the meat around to save all the starving people. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/33 "2011-04-27T02:07:45Z")
If the state takes my organs, who pays the processing fees? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/34 "2011-04-27T02:21:17Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Much of the OP’s premise is effectively “you’re dead, so you can’t actually care what happens to your corpse.” So, I think a fair extension to the analogy is that your neighbor borrows your chainsaw when you aren’t home and therefore aren’t using it. Even supposing the neighbor restores the device to pristine condition after each use, would you have a problem with this? This is a very, very bad analogy because even when you’re not at home, you still exist and your property is still your property. But when “you” “are” dead, it’s a totally different matter. You are not going to pop back into your body at some point. Even talking about a “you” that “is” dead is a bit of linguistic chicanery. Better than saying “Dr. Strangelove is dead” we’d do far better to say “Dr. Strangelove was.” When someone’s personhood is obliterated in death, there is no ‘self’ left to be anything, to be effected by anything, or to have opinions on anything. What was your body is now a corpse, and it can potentially save lives… or nourish worms. Your body is no longer your property when it’s a corpse, because there is no more “you”. At that point we’re left with meat. And we can let it rot in the ground and do nobody any good, or we can save lives and enrich the quality of life of people who exist. Unlike the dead. Now, we can still have wills and inheritances and such, because people can make use of the possessions that are left behind. Just like, I’d argue, someone should be allowed to will their corpse to medical research or the like. But barring stuffing and mounting someone’s corpse in the family game room, there’s really nothing to be done with a dead body other than use its constituent parts. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/35 "2011-04-27T02:34:21Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > While this is IMO possibly true, I think you need a cite or some actual data to declare this either way. Unfortunately, the data on which I base that I learned about while working for Blue Cross Blue Shield and is strictly confidential. Which is always a problem for me, as I doubt anyone wants a former employee of a health insurance company spilling out confidential patient information, but it also means that I inevitably lose these on-line arguments because I simply can’t provide you with the material on which I base my statements. You have to die in a particular manner, and have a particular level of health, to result in usable organs. That’s a minority of deaths. People seem to have this illusion that all the fatal car accidents and drug overdoses and gunshot wounds will somehow result in a bountiful harvest of usable organs. It won’t. If your body dies before you make it to the hospital your organs are useless. If you from a toxin (like a drug overdose) your organs will be useless. If you harbor a variety of viruses your organs are useless. If you’ve had cancer your organs are useless. If you’re shot in the head and keep breathing long enough for them to get you onto life support yeah, you might get usable organs but if you’re shot in the chest that’s much less likely due to organ damage. Most people don’t die in a manner that would allow for organ harvesting. Making the OP law won’t change that. It will provide a _few_ more organs, but not enough to eliminate the waiting lists. Consider, too, that organs must be matched to the recipient, and if there is no such recipient close enough to transport the organ to that person in a viable amount of time then there is no way to save it for later. If someone in Maine falls off a motorcycle and dies of a head injury it doesn’t matter that they’re a match for someone in Los Angeles - there simply isn’t a way to get that organ to the potential recipient in time for a successful transplant. Yes, the OP’s law will help _but it will NOT eliminate the organ shortage_. There still won’t be enough of them to go around. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/36 "2011-04-27T02:49:48Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > What’s the big deal? so you lose 15 minutes of unconsciousness at the end of it all? Or 15 days? I’d be willing to accept that risk. No, the risk is you die when you wouldn’t have otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/37 "2011-04-27T02:56:05Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > No, the risk is you die when you wouldn’t have otherwise. Do you have a cite of a single organ donor, currently, who was sacrificed by a doctor in order to harvest their organs? ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/38 "2011-04-27T02:56:25Z")
Anyone want some Soylent Green? It’s the most delicious and nutritious of Soylent formulas, and It’s made of your dear old Grandma and several others! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/39 "2011-04-27T03:01:50Z")
When my father died we told the doctor that he was an organ donor and we agreed within the hour of his death to harvesting. Due to the nature of his death, a sudden and unexpected heart attack, about the only thing they could take from him was some skin and his cornea (I don’t doubt that maybe there was some other stuff but it wasn’t the main internal organs). So I’m wondering, how many more internal organs (livers, kidneys, hearts, etc., etc.) will an opt out system provide? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/40 "2011-04-27T03:03:49Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > how many more internal organs (livers, kidneys, hearts, etc., etc.) will an opt out system provide? A non-zero number. Pretty good, all in all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800.md?page=3)