# I think we should make harvesting of organs mandatory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800 "2011-04-26T18:42:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/41 "2011-04-27T03:07:31Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I don’t think that’s a fair analogy. Bodies aren’t considered trash by advocates of either position. I actually don’t personally care if my carcass is dumped in a ditch or otherwise desecrated. But I don’t think anyone here is advocating that the state can do anything it wants to dead bodies. Of course bodies are considered trash- what do people do with 'em? With a few exceptions (easily covered by the opt-out), most people just end up buried or burned. Kinda sounds like trash to me. Would it make the idea more palatable if instead of “The State” (with its obvious 1984 implications), we refer to “society” or “the community”? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/42 "2011-04-27T03:10:33Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > A non-zero number. > Pretty good, all in all. That’s not really a useful answer. If you’re going to ask for laws to be changed then you’re going to have to show some concrete evidence that it’s worth changing the law. “A non-zero number” is not concrete evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/43 "2011-04-27T03:15:53Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Of course bodies are considered trash- what do people do with 'em? With a few exceptions (easily covered by the opt-out), most people just end up buried or burned. Kinda sounds like trash to me. Yes, I frequently spend thousands of dollars to bury my trash in an elaborate wood or metal receptacle in a park-like setting, and mark the spot with an engraved stone. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/44 "2011-04-27T03:20:25Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Of course bodies are considered trash- what do people do with 'em? With a few exceptions (easily covered by the opt-out), most people just end up buried or burned. Kinda sounds like trash to me. Surely nobody can be this clueless. Have you ever been to a funeral? Have you ever been to a graveyard? I’d wager that there are very few cultures on Earth that treat their dead as trash. Even Neanderthals didn’t treat their dead as trash. No, they opted to bury them in certain positions and to include artifacts. People visit graveyards to mourn and remember. I don’t know of many people who visit the local dump to mourn and remember that neat sofa they threw away four years ago. I can understand the attitude that a dead body is just a dead body with no special meaning attached to it. To some degree I certainly agree. However, those who ignore or are dismissive of death rituals (we all have them) strike me as incapable of understanding other human beings. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/45 "2011-04-27T03:23:38Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > “A non-zero number” is not concrete evidence. Yes, it is. It’s quite concrete evidence. If all organs are up for potential use unless the opt-out clause was invoked, then that will lead to a non-zero increase in the number of organs available. As such it’s a perfectly useful answer. We will make use of resources that are, literally, being left to rot in holes in the ground and instead we will use a non-zero number of them to save lives and improve the quality of life of a non-zero number of people. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/46 "2011-04-27T03:25:03Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, it is. It’s quite concrete evidence. If all organs are up for potential use unless the opt-out clause was invoked, then that will lead to a non-zero increase in the number of organs available. Not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/47 "2011-04-27T03:37:48Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I agree that it seems a no-brainer in terms of expediency, but despite being what would be termed here a liberal, there’s something about handing this particular item of control over to government that makes me feel quite uncomfortable. I’m a registered organ donor myself, so it’s not that, either. I feel much the same way. > [@Cort](#): > > Why shouldn’t your body become government property after you die? By extension, why shouldn’t any (or every) thing you own become government property upon your death? Because what _was_ your property now becomes your estate, and the state does not have an overriding interest in snatching your body after you vacate. I’m a donor. I consider that to be “willing my organs to whomever can use them”. If the government wants to promote organ donorship then perhaps it ought to give a tax break to the estate of people who donate their organs. I was going to suggest offering a bounty to your beneficiaries, but there are some folks who just don’t have the patience to wait upon natural causes and might attempt to hasten the process. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/48 "2011-04-27T03:48:09Z")
> [@SSgtBaloo](#): > > If the government wants to promote organ donorship then perhaps it ought to give a tax break to the estate of people who donate their organs. There is [no tax on estates less than $5 million](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_tax_in_the_United_States), so that’s not going to generate much donation. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/49 "2011-04-27T03:56:50Z")
If the insurance mandate is declared unconstitutional, all drivers licenses could read: EMERGENCY CARE INSTRUCTIONS (check one or more boxes) — I have medical insurance — I am an organ donor. (if box 1 is unchecked, please wait) ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/50 "2011-04-27T04:20:16Z")
Singapore has had an opt-out scheme for years. Kidney transplants have tripled, apparently, but there are [scenes](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1544379/Singapores-compulsory-organ-transplants.html). (I do think the medical staff could have been a tad more gentle about it. Still, a liver patent is going to die because a dead man’s family wanted to cry over a hunk of meat for one more day.) There is an exception for Muslims. Apparently organ donors are higher on the list if they should require organs - I think that’s a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/51 "2011-04-27T04:25:35Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Singapore has had an opt-out scheme for years. Kidney transplants have tripled, apparently, but there are [scenes](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1544379/Singapores-compulsory-organ-transplants.html). (I do think the medical staff could have been a tad more gentle about it. Still, a liver patent is going to die because a dead man’s family wanted to cry over a hunk of meat for one more day.) There is an exception for Muslims. > Apparently organ donors are higher on the list if they should require organs - I think that’s a good idea. That sounds better than my proposed tax-break scam, I mean _Scheme_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/52 "2011-04-27T05:02:42Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > Of course bodies are considered trash- what do people do with 'em? With a few exceptions (easily covered by the opt-out), most people just end up buried or burned. Kinda sounds like trash to me. We spend tens of thousands of dollars putting people in very special boxes in very special holes in very special places. No, it’s not trash. > [@Lightnin](#): > > Would it make the idea more palatable if instead of “The State” (with its obvious 1984 implications), we refer to “society” or “the community”? No. At least “the state” is a concrete entity, and although I generally oppose utilitarian arguments, at least it’s possible to form one. “Society” is such a vague concept that one can’t even form a reasonable argument around it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/53 "2011-04-27T05:23:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is a very, very bad analogy because even when you’re not at home, you still exist and your property is still your property. Right. But if I can’t care about the crime because I don’t know about it and will never find out, how is this different than being dead? Look, I have a hard time motivating myself to create a will, because even though I care about my family now, I know that when I’m dead I won’t care about them, and therefore it makes little sense to care about how my assets are distributed. I get the concept. What I do care about, right now, is the extent of the state’s domain of control. The specifics don’t interest me that much–we might as well be talking here about the state demanding the right to harvest tattoos to preserve some cultural heritage. It doesn’t matter; I simply don’t think that the state has default rights to my corpse. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just like, I’d argue, someone should be allowed to will their corpse to medical research or the like. I don’t understand. If the state has automatic rights to the corpse, why don’t they decide whether to harvest it for organs, donate it to science, or otherwise? After all, they can make a better determination as to which target has the highest priority, and further, which is the best use of a _particular_ corpse (say, it goes to science if the person died of some interesting disease, an organ donor if the person died as a road smear, or as a fuel source otherwise). Why should the person have any input at all into what happens with the body? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/54 "2011-04-27T05:27:27Z")
> [@humanafterall](#): > > Anyone want some Soylent Green? It’s the most delicious and nutritious of Soylent formulas, and It’s made of your dear old Grandma and several others! Eh, the taste varies from person to person. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/55 "2011-04-27T10:00:31Z")
> [@SSgtBaloo](#): > > By extension, why shouldn’t any (or every) thing you own become government property upon your death? Because what _was_ your property now becomes your estate, and the state does not have an overriding interest in snatching your body after you vacate. Your stuff can be reused after you die. Your body isn’t good for anything except saving lives or feeding worms. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/56 "2011-04-27T10:39:52Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > Your stuff can be reused after you die. Your body isn’t good for anything except saving lives or feeding worms. In other words, it can be reused. (I’m sure creative readers could imagine additional ways in which bodies _could_ be reused.) Besides, sentimental and symbolic “uses” for things can be plenty important to people. I’m sure you have some object in your home right now which has no _practical_ use to you but which means a lot. If you’re willing to concede to the state the determination about _how_ to dispose of your body after your death, I can’t see why you should object to the state making that determination for everything else of yours, too. After all, > [@FinnAgain](#): > > The ‘you’ that owns a body is functionally obliterated upon death. No, seizure of the body after death is a violation of the human rights of the _living person_ who wished otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/57 "2011-04-27T10:47:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I favor mandatory organ donation How is a donation mandatory? 😃 I actually don’t. I’m happy to harvest everything down to my eyeballs, but there are some who would be opposed for religious reasons. Dead or not, the only time the government can interfere with your life is when they tax your estate. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/58 "2011-04-27T10:55:44Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > Your stuff can be reused after you die. Arguably though, the state could make a better and more socially-beneficial redistribution of your goods after you die. Your chosen heirs might not be the most needy people. I don’t really believe that, but I don’t think this whole question is as cut-and-dried as it seems. The state could appropriate bodies and sell them as fertiliser, or turn them into grotesque statues, or whatever, and it could be argued to have _greater utility_ than burial, but I’m not sure that’s enough. We are essentially talking about a form of communism here - which I don’t personally object to just because of what it’s called, but to allow the state to take full control in this way feels dangerously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/59 "2011-04-27T13:16:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, it is. It’s quite concrete evidence. If all organs are up for potential use unless the opt-out clause was invoked, then that will lead to a non-zero increase in the number of organs available. As such it’s a perfectly useful answer. We will make use of resources that are, literally, being left to rot in holes in the ground and instead we will use a non-zero number of them to save lives and improve the quality of life of a non-zero number of people. No, it’s not. You’re argument is the equivalent of “if it saves just one life it’s worth it” which is also not a good argument. I realize estimates might be difficult to come by but they should exist for your side of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/60 "2011-04-27T13:25:07Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Surely nobody can be this clueless. Have you ever been to a funeral? Have you ever been to a graveyard? I’d wager that there are very few cultures on Earth that treat their dead as trash. Even Neanderthals didn’t treat their dead as trash. No, they opted to bury them in certain positions and to include artifacts. People visit graveyards to mourn and remember. I don’t know of many people who visit the local dump to mourn and remember that neat sofa they threw away four years ago. > > I can understand the attitude that a dead body is just a dead body with no special meaning attached to it. To some degree I certainly agree. However, those who ignore or are dismissive of death rituals (we all have them) strike me as incapable of understanding other human beings. > > Odesio I… see. Because I think death rituals are secondary to the benefits of opt-in organ donation, I’m “incapable of understanding other human beings?” My mother died when I was 18. I’ve been back to her grave a few times, but you know what? She’s not there. She’s in my memories, and in the pictures I’ve got of her. My grandmother died a few years earlier than that. Once again, though, “she” isn’t in the grave. She’s in the tree that we planted in her memory, and in the plastic cow she gave me when I was very young. My wife and I have a pact- when we die, we both want to be cremated for as cheaply as possible and then scattered wherever the survivor thinks best appropriate. _After_, of course, our organs have been harvested. Use the money left over to throw a good party, or go on a trip, or something. I’m sure, however, that your death ritual of letting the body rot in the ground just so you can visit the grave is more important than potentially saving someone stranger’s life. Since this isn’t The Pit, I can’t tell you what you can do with your “clueless” comment, or your declaration that I’m “incapable of understanding other human beings”. Although I must admit that I’m half tempted to take the warning, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800.md?page=4)