# I think we should make harvesting of organs mandatory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800 "2011-04-26T18:42:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/61 "2011-04-27T13:34:05Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > I… see. Because I think death rituals are secondary to the benefits of opt-in organ donation, I’m “incapable of understanding other human beings?” No, it’s because you’re incapable of seeing how important they are to other people that makes you incapable of understanding other human beings. It’s all about how you feel without any consideration the millions who don’t view a corpse as simply a piece of meat to be discarded casually. If you wish to pit me go ahead and pit me. At the very least avoid spineless threats. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/62 "2011-04-27T13:34:37Z")
**Lightnin’** , I think you missed the point. > [@Lightnin](#): > > My grandmother died a few years earlier than that. Once again, though, “she” isn’t in the grave. She’s in the tree that we planted in her memory, and in the plastic cow she gave me when I was very young. And how would you feel if those things were taken from you? Or all your pictures? Just because _you_ vest your feelings in other things than gravesites and headstones doesn’t mean that the feelings of others which attach to those things are cheap. And they’re certainly less abstract, for those people, than _potentially saving a stranger’s life_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/63 "2011-04-27T13:54:44Z")
Quite a few posts have excorciated “religions” as being a major stumbling block in this plan. Can someone refresh my recollection as to which religious demoninations object to organ donation? My unresearched opinion was that most major religions were at least neutral to the concept, not hostile to it in any meaningful way. Certainly my faith, Roman Catholicism, supports and enocurages the practice. When I was Grand Knight of my K of C council some fifteen years ago, I ran a blood drive that also encouraged participants to register as organ donors. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/64 "2011-04-27T16:14:01Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You’re argument is the equivalent of “if it saves just one life it’s worth it” which is also not a good argument. In the balance stands at least one human life, versus annelid nourishment. It’s a very, very _good_ argument. How many human lives, exactly, would you put in the balance against our responsibility to feed the worms? What’s your threshold? > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Right. But if I can’t care about the crime because I don’t know about it and will never find out, how is this different than being dead? Again, because there is quite a significant difference between not knowing something and _not existing_. You are trying to compare the property rights of someone who doesn’t know something with the property rights of someone who does not actually exist. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > If the state has automatic rights to the corpse, why don’t they decide whether to harvest it for organs, donate it to science, or otherwise? Just like the state can tax you but there are exceptions, if a corpse is being used for beneficial research that should be an exemption. > [@spark240](#): > > No, seizure of the body after death is a violation of the human rights of the _living person_ who wished otherwise. At the point where you’re claiming that the human rights of a person who does not exist are being violated, or human rights are being violated backwards in time at a point where that person did exist, it’s clear that you’re rationalizing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/65 "2011-04-27T16:26:16Z")
Are you accounting for the suffering of the survivors? Granted, the dead don’t suffer, but the people they leave behind do. Now, you may not agree with a cultural meme that says (pull WAG out of rear orifice) that removing body parts interferes with some eternal afterlife, but those who do may suffer greatly to think a loved one has been barred from heaven, or consigned to eternal limbo, or whatever, due to organ donation. They may view that as a fate _worse_ than death… hence why some argue there should be allowances to opt-out for belief systems. It’s not for the benefit of the deceased, but for the benefit of survivors. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/66 "2011-04-27T16:37:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > At the point where you’re claiming that the human rights of a person who does not exist are being violated, or human rights are being violated backwards in time at a point where that person did exist, it’s clear that you’re rationalizing. So you, _right now_, should have no say in what happens to your possessions after your death? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/67 "2011-04-27T16:38:03Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Now, you may not agree with a cultural meme that says (pull WAG out of rear orifice) that removing body parts interferes with some eternal afterlife, but those who do may suffer greatly to think a loved one has been barred from heaven, or consigned to eternal limbo, or whatever, due to organ donation. Ideally, no, ultra-orthodox Jews wouldn’t be able to get in the way of saving live via organ donation any more than other folks would be allowed to refuse taxation because giving away money conflicts with _their_ religious beliefs. I recognize that societal we’re not at that point yet, however, so opt-out is preferable. And, Spark, this is a thread about organ donation. If you’d like to how the government should deal with estates and property, that’s quite a different discussion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/68 "2011-04-27T16:48:39Z")
Skimmed the thread, but didn’t see if this was brought up yet. One might make the argument that you don’t own your body after you die, but don’t your heirs own the body? I certainly own my body while I’m alive, and I would say that my ownership of said body is stronger than my ownership of my house. I can leave my house to my kids, but not by body? And think of the “social good” that could be accomplished if the government owned my house after I died. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/69 "2011-04-27T17:00:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And, Spark, this is a thread about organ donation. If you’d like to how the government should deal with estates and property, that’s quite a different discussion. I think it is exactly the same. As **John Mace** says, other people can no doubt suggest lots of useful things to do with your _other_ property upon your expiration, that you might take issue with _now_, while you live. Why should your body, of all things, be subject to less protection? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/70 "2011-04-27T17:06:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What am I missing? That the state has a practical use for your dead body that no one else does? Unless your heirs are demanding your organs for their home transplant business or they’re really, really hungry and would like to make a tasty **John Mace** liver and onions dish, I can’t see anything _practical_ they could do with your organs. Remember they can probably still bury some of you, it’s not like your whole body is necessarily lost. Indeed most of the tasty muscle meat should remain if they wanted delicious **John Mace** fajitas. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/71 "2011-04-27T17:26:30Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > That the state has a practical use for your dead body that no one else does? An objective definition of “practical” might not be easy to come up with here. I can easily imagine a child feeling deeply troubled that, without her ever expressing any desire for it, the body of his dead mother was chopped up to be parceled out, and finding the resulting anguish highly impractical. He’d presumably be told that better people than he had been given the authority to decide what was practical. ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/72 "2011-04-27T18:04:57Z")
> [@spark420](#): > > In other words, it can be reused. (I’m sure creative readers could imagine additional ways in which bodies _could_ be reused.) > > Besides, sentimental and symbolic “uses” for things can be plenty important to people. I’m sure you have some object in your home right now which has no _practical_ use to you but which means a lot. > > If you’re willing to concede to the state the determination about _how_ to dispose of your body after your death, I can’t see why you should object to the state making that determination for everything else of yours, too. You’re right. A body can be reused in a lot of ways. For instance, it can be ground up for compost, or sold as a fucktoy on Craigslist. The evil state, however, _forbids_ the recycling of human remains in this way. No matter how much a living person may desperately want to make some lucky necrophiliac’s Saturday night, the state will step in and say “No. You’re not allowed”. So the state already has plenty of rights over your dead body. Currently, the state only allows you to dispose of your internal organs in two ways. You can either burn them, or bury them in certain designated places for the nourishment of worms and beetles. A lot of people think this is something of a waste, particularly since every hospital in the country will, today, lose at least one patient waiting for an organ transplant. Your stuff is different. Sure, the state _could_ sell it to buy antibiotics for sick kids or whatever, but then where is _your_ incentive to hang on to this stuff while you’re still alive? The only reason people don’t blow their life savings in a mad dash to tick every box on the bucket list is because they want to leave it to their kids. If the state _did_ step in and take your belongings, pretty soon people would stop leaving any belongings behind to take. It’s a self-defeating strategy, in other words. I’d be happy if the state instructed doctors to take organs whenever viable, because they can’t possibly be put to any other decent use. I would not be happy to let the state take my stuff because, even though _I_ won’t care about it, I would want my children to be as well off as possible. If the state took people’s stuff, people would just dispose of it themselves before they died. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/73 "2011-04-27T18:05:22Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Apparently organ donors are higher on the list if they should require organs - I think that’s a good idea. I really like this idea. Seems to solve the core problem to me. People/families that don’t want to help out for whatever reason also likely won’t get any help when they need it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/74 "2011-04-27T18:23:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Are you accounting for the suffering of the survivors? > > Granted, the dead don’t suffer, but the people they leave behind do. Now, you may not agree with a cultural meme that says (pull WAG out of rear orifice) that removing body parts interferes with some eternal afterlife, but those who do may suffer greatly to think a loved one has been barred from heaven, or consigned to eternal limbo, or whatever, due to organ donation. They may view that as a fate _worse_ than death… hence why some argue there should be allowances to opt-out for belief systems. It’s not for the benefit of the deceased, but for the benefit of survivors. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ideally, no, ultra-orthodox Jews wouldn’t be able to get in the way of saving live via organ donation any more than other folks would be allowed to refuse taxation because giving away money conflicts with _their_ religious beliefs. I recognize that societal we’re not at that point yet, however, so opt-out is preferable. How, pray tell, did you make the leap to assuming I was referring to “ultra-orthodox Jews”? I did not specify any religion, and “ultra-Orthodox Jews” are hardly alone wanting the body to be intact to one to degree or another. MANY groups have done that, from Ancient Egyptians (the whole purpose of mummification was to preserve the corpse, after all, including quite a few of the internal organs which were given special attention and their own containers) to modern-day Hmong. There’s more than one group potentially involved. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/75 "2011-04-27T18:36:13Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > How, pray tell Because they believe that all the bits of a body are required for its time in the afterlife. You’re free to get annoyed that I provided a valid example though, I guess. Feel free to substitute any other group(s) that also share a religious belief about organ donation, and the argument remains the same. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/76 "2011-04-27T19:23:11Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > Singapore has had an opt-out scheme for years. Kidney transplants have tripled, apparently, but there are [scenes](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1544379/Singapores-compulsory-organ-transplants.html). (I do think the medical staff could have been a tad more gentle about it. Still, a liver patent is going to die because a dead man’s family wanted to cry over a hunk of meat for one more day.) There is an exception for Muslims. > > Apparently organ donors are higher on the list if they should require organs - I think that’s a good idea. The link also mentioned the idea of allowing organs to be sold after death. That would dovetail neatly with the idea that, if there’s no longer a “you” to hold ownership of your body then it naturally devolves onto your heirs just like your more mundane property, and would also increase donation rates – your heirs would have to have some strongly rooted objection, not just a vague squickiness, to turn down serious cash. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/77 "2011-04-27T19:34:45Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > And how would you feel if those things were taken from you? Or all your pictures? Just because _you_ vest your feelings in other things than gravesites and headstones doesn’t mean that the feelings of others which attach to those things are cheap. And they’re certainly less abstract, for those people, than _potentially saving a stranger’s life_. She gave me those things… well, the plastic cow, anyway. And we planted the tree in her memory. And you know what? If that tree burned down, or the cow was stolen… I’d be bummed, but not devastated. Certainly not devastated enough to let someone else die. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/78 "2011-04-27T19:37:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Skimmed the thread, but didn’t see if this was brought up yet. > > One might make the argument that you don’t own your body after you die, but don’t your heirs own the body? I certainly own my body while I’m alive, and I would say that my ownership of said body is stronger than my ownership of my house. I can leave my house to my kids, but not by body? And think of the “social good” that could be accomplished if the government owned my house after I died. > > What am I missing? Well, if Grandma’s body belongs to you after she dies, shouldn’t you be able to have it stuffed and mounted? The state is already telling you what you can and can’t do with a body- why draw the line at organ donation? ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/79 "2011-04-27T19:45:10Z")
I want my flaming corpse to be launched into the sea via catapult at my funeral party (on a boat). As long as everything will stay together during flight properly without them, you may have whatever organs you like. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800/80 "2011-04-27T21:23:54Z")
I advise everyone to go to [bethematch.org](http://bethematch.org) and sign up to be a bone marrow donor. I did. I mean, you could save a life. Go. Save a life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-we-should-make-harvesting-of-organs-mandatory/579800.md?page=5)