# I thought Babylon 5 was supposed to be serious sci-fi... \[spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491 "2009-01-09T04:50:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/21 "2009-01-09T11:10:25Z")
> [@sturmhauke](#): > > My problem with B5 was that the writing, direction, and most of the acting (except for Delenn and G’Kar) were so goddamned hamfisted. I liked the moral ambiguity and complex themes and all that, but it hammered on ideas long after they became dull. At times it was almost a self-parody. Huh. From where I’m sitting, Delenn’s not looking too subtle. Of course, I _did_ just get to the part where she has her first period, so maybe I should just wait it out… Also, Londo’s hamfisted acting is kind of fun. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/22 "2009-01-09T18:44:57Z")
Londo is my favorite character in the series. There’s a lot more to him than is shown in the early seasons. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/23 "2009-01-09T19:05:15Z")
Londo and G’Kar are probably my two favorites. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/24 "2009-01-09T19:14:26Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Ivanova/Zathras : 2012 Are you insane? That would be a disaster! You want Ivanova/Zathras in 2012 instead. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/25 "2009-01-09T19:22:05Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Well, refresh my memory. Because I distinctly remember that at one point it was stated that they had found a Minbari “soul” in Sinclair. Was that just a lie, or really absurd poetic license, or what? The literal truth. Remember – Sinclair ended up being Valen, one of the most revered figures in the history of Minbar ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/26 "2009-01-09T19:51:32Z")
Oh I understood that part (I was being a little coy about it because of the spoiler) but the question was [spoiler]whether the Minbari had actually detected his “soul”-- which the OP was complaining was too much fantasy not “serious sci-fi” – or whether they’d actually just detected his DNA because he was literally the same person. **Oakminster** and **ricksummon** were saying above that the triluminary didn’t really scan souls, it scanned for DNA, and then the Grey Council wrongly extrapolated that Sinclair must be Valen reincarnated. I don’t remember the specifics on this point very well, but one thing I’d forgotten was that the triluminary was something the Minbari got from Valen in the first place, so it’s not so implausible that they didn’t understand what it was doing and just were confused about the whole soul thing. Of course, if souls exist then Sinclair _does_ have Valen’s soul, since they’re the same person and all. But like I said, the question here wasn’t whether Sinclair and Valen share a soul but whether the Triluminary was actually a soul-scanning device.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/27 "2009-01-09T20:00:46Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Oh I understood that part (I was being a little coy about it because of the spoiler) but the question was [spoiler]whether the Minbari had actually detected his “soul”-- which the OP was complaining was too much fantasy not “serious sci-fi” – or whether they’d actually just detected his DNA because he was literally the same person. **Oakminster** and **ricksummon** were saying above that the triluminary didn’t really scan souls, it scanned for DNA, and then the Grey Council wrongly extrapolated that Sinclair must be Valen reincarnated. I don’t remember the specifics on this point very well, but one thing I’d forgotten was that the triluminary was something the Minbari got from Valen in the first place, so it’s not so implausible that they didn’t understand what it was doing and just were confused about the whole soul thing. > > Of course, if souls exist then Sinclair _does_ have Valen’s soul, since they’re the same person and all. But like I said, the question here wasn’t whether Sinclair and Valen share a soul but whether the Triluminary was actually a soul-scanning device.[/spoiler] [spoiler]It wasn’t just that they got it from Valen/Sinclair, but that he got it in turn from “The Great Machine” on Epsilon 3. It was given to him for the exact purpose of detecting his DNA in the future to stop the Earth/Minbari war, and to transform Delenn into a human/minbari hybrid. It’s a bit of a predestination paradox in that way, but it’s consistent with _most_ of the other time-travel they do. IIRC, the only thing that’s not consistent is Ivanova’s message from the future, and Sinclair seeing a vision of him and Garibaldi fighting the Shadows. They needed the first one as an “excuse” to send everyone back in time, and the second would be consistent with that first one, except that at the time Sinclair wouldn’t have been on B5, but that’s because of production issues, so they did they best they could to “cover it up.”[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/28 "2009-01-09T20:04:20Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Are you insane? That would be a disaster! You want Ivanova/Zathras in 2012 instead. Meh , we’ll just go back in time and fix it, cuz Zathras says Declan ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/29 "2009-01-09T20:23:35Z")
> [@sturmhauke](#): > > I liked the moral ambiguity and complex themes and all that, but it hammered on ideas long after they became dull. At times it was almost a self-parody. Part of that might have been to try and keep things relevant to new viewers. Unfortunately, starting in the second season the plot arcs get too complicated for any episode to work well as a stand-alone, and one of the goals _was_ to try and keep things so that new viewers didn’t get totally lost. Lando and G’Kar have a great relationship in the show though, both to begin with and through the series as it evolves. And Lando’s character may seem hamfisted, but he also starts the series as pretty much a joke–it isn’t until the second season that he comes into having a real role in the politics of his planet. Before that, he’s a worthless drunk who’s been stuck with a position that no one else wants. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/30 "2009-01-09T20:27:59Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Meh , we’ll just go back in time and fix it, cuz Zathras says Either way, for Zathras there is symmetry. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/31 "2009-01-09T20:31:44Z")
What?! Supposed to be serious sci-fi?! No, sir! _Babylon 5_ is supposed to be [space opera,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera) and is one of the finest examples of that subgenre. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/32 "2009-01-09T22:05:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What?! Supposed to be serious sci-fi?! No, sir! _Babylon 5_ is supposed to be [space opera,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera) and is one of the finest examples of that subgenre. Yeah, apparently I missed that distinction. Now, I’m wondering: would it be possible to do a hard space opera? I’m thinking you need FTL, but other than that, I think you could keep it pretty hard while doing a large, sweeping story. Does anyone know of any? Probably books, I doubt it’s been done (well) visually. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/33 "2009-01-09T22:07:38Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > Yeah, apparently I missed that distinction. Now, I’m wondering: would it be possible to do a hard space opera? I’m thinking you need FTL, but other than that, I think you could keep it pretty hard while doing a large, sweeping story. Does anyone know of any? Probably books, I doubt it’s been done (well) visually. Haldeman’s [_The Forever War_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forever_War) comes close, though there is some blackboxing (e.g., force fields) and some flat counterfactuals like the idea of psychic powers, including telepathic communication between clones. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/34 "2009-01-09T22:34:00Z")
You know, “hard” science fiction is not synonymous with “serious” science fiction. It’s simply a sub-genre, and no more serious than any other. Some of the greatest, most mature and most literate science fiction ever written is so-called “soft” SF. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/35 "2009-01-09T22:50:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You know, “hard” science fiction is not synonymous with “serious” science fiction. It’s simply a sub-genre, and no more serious than any other. Some of the greatest, most mature and most literate science fiction ever written is so-called “soft” SF. Yeah, that’s true. My use of ‘serious’ was the result of trying to find an adjective that indicated some level of hardness, but not too much - FTL is okay, but souls are a bit much - and also more realism, no command staff away teams and all that. I don’t know that there’s really one word to describe what I want to describe, though. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/36 "2009-01-09T23:48:43Z")
The command staff on away teams is sorta tied in to the reality of production. Your stars are generally going to be on the command staff. If the episode’s story is mostly about an away mission, you pretty much have to have some of your stars present. Nobody really wants to watch “Space Soldier #2” and “Gratuitous Cleavage” carry the story arc for any extended length of time. And you’re paying the stars anyway, so you may as well work them. The away team shouldn’t include the entire command staff\*…but some subset thereof is acceptable. \*Unless, of course, this means Scotty has the bridge. Scotty rocks as acting Captain. ---
**Author:** ![runcible\_spoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc29f/32.png) [@runcible\_spoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runcible_spoon)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/37 "2009-01-10T00:09:20Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > The command staff on away teams is sorta tied in to the reality of production. Your stars are generally going to be on the command staff. If the episode’s story is mostly about an away mission, you pretty much have to have some of your stars present. Nobody really wants to watch “Space Soldier #2” and “Gratuitous Cleavage” carry the story arc for any extended length of time. And you’re paying the stars anyway, so you may as well work them. The away team shouldn’t include the entire command staff\*…but some subset thereof is acceptable. > > \*Unless, of course, this means Scotty has the bridge. Scotty rocks as acting Captain. I’ve thought about this before - what I’d like to see would be a show with two sets of characters: you’d have your command staff, but you’d also have a group of the EVA/exploration/jack-of-all-trade personnel. When they were on a mission, you’d have both groups on-screen, in constant radio contact, but on their down-time you could show each one individually. On the one hand, I think it’d be cool to be able to show the reactions of the workers without having one-off, lower deck episodes, which I always find a little too trite, and on the other, you’d could get some good interactions between them. You’d probably want to limit the size of each group - maybe just two-three main characters each. I’m thinking the focal points would be the manager of the control team, and the head of the explorers. Ideally, you’d probably want to have them dealing with situations in which a small team is best - either low-budget stuff where you can’t afford twenty guys, or high-danger stuff, where you don’t want to risk too many. For an example (albeit somewhat tangential, and in book form), there’s a similar-ish set-up in either Pandora’s Star or Judas Unchained by Peter Hamilton, with the team exploring new worlds through stable wormholes - it’s not really a big part of the books, but I really liked the idea of the director being a somewhat-major character. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/38 "2009-01-10T00:33:35Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > On the one hand, I think it’d be cool to be able to show the reactions of the workers without having one-off, lower deck episodes, which I always find a little too trite, You’re in for one of those with B5, too…from the point of view of a pair of janitors on the station. It’s better than it sounds. ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/39 "2009-01-10T00:35:24Z")
I wish I could think of something nobody else has said in this thread because I just finished watching it again. My oh my, Marcus was _dreamy_. Though my favorite B5-related memory was from a con a few years ago where Peter and Andreas were pretending to fight over who got to take me on a date. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491/40 "2009-01-10T00:47:22Z")
> [@runcible\_spoon](#): > > I’ve thought about this before - what I’d like to see would be a show with two sets of characters: you’d have your command staff, but you’d also have a group of the EVA/exploration/jack-of-all-trade personnel. When they were on a mission, you’d have both groups on-screen, in constant radio contact, but on their down-time you could show each one individually. On the one hand, I think it’d be cool to be able to show the reactions of the workers without having one-off, lower deck episodes, which I always find a little too trite, and on the other, you’d could get some good interactions between them. I like this idea. It works on _Law & Order_. No reason it couldn’t work in an sf milieu, as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-babylon-5-was-supposed-to-be-serious-sci-fi-spoilers/480491.md?page=3)