# I thought we all agreed that we should deport criminals? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289 "2017-01-27T03:03:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/21 "2017-01-27T05:01:26Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > What do most other countries do about this who don’t have ready cheap manual labor on hand? I read an [article](http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-farmers-deportation-20170105-story.html) where a California grower in anticipation of Trump’s changes bought a whole lot of equipment to do what he needed to do rather than count on the manual labor he had been using up to that point. > Equipment normally requires a large capital cost, but should be more efficient over the long term than even the cheapest manual labour. > How do businesses get away with hiring people who don’t have a legal right to work in a country? There is always a host of paperwork involved with hiring people, not the least of which is making sure tax on income is paid and counted against the correct person. Seasonal worker permits, E.G. 60% of the seasonal labor force in Italy is seasonal workers. Every time they have crazy enforcement threats or new laws crops rot. Hiring Americans to pick apples is a fantasy. They won’t do it. During the last recession crops rotted because of a lack of workers too. But it is not hard to find social security numbers etc…It is a common case that the “illegals” are paying taxes have W2s etc… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/22 "2017-01-27T05:07:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s a circular argument going on here: > > -Let’s not deport undocumented immigrants unless they commit crimes. > -Driving without a license? That’s a crime. Deport 'em! > -Let’s not let undocumented immigrants get driver’s licenses. > > You may argue that nobody forces them to drive; but it’s very difficult in many places in the US to live without having at least someone in your immediate family who can drive. > > Driving without a license doesn’t cause death. Being a shitty driver does. Many people who drive without a license have had their license revoked due to their previous shitty driving. But that’s not the case for undocumented immigrants who are legally unable to obtain a license. That’s not circular reasoning. It’s a natural consequence of being in a country illegally. No one here illegally has a right to drive. Yes, it’s very difficult to live here without driving. SO THEN DON’T LIVE HERE, UNLESS YOU ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO!!! This is another good example to add to the: Why Democrats lose column. People here illegally should not be here. It’s too fucking bad if they can’t drive, which is why they should be in the country where they can drive. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/23 "2017-01-27T05:08:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not circular reasoning. It’s a natural consequence of being in a country illegally. No one here illegally has a right to drive. Cite that driving is a “right” or that it requires citizenship etc… Pro tip: no one has a “right to drive” ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/24 "2017-01-27T05:15:07Z")
To save John Mace time > **[Driving in the U.S. if you are not a citizen | USAGov](https://www.usa.gov/non-citizen-driving)** > > Learn about International Driving Permits (IDPs) and how to get one before you visit the U.S. Some states also require a driving permit from your country. > [@](#): > > Residents (Non-U.S. Citizens) > The residency requirement for obtaining a U.S. driver’s license is different in each state: > > If you are eligible to apply for a driver’s license, you must get a driver’s license from the state where you live. Washington state requirements > [@](#): > > Apply for a WA Driver’s License > > If you meet certain criteria, you can pre-apply online for a Washington driver’s license and save some time. > To be eligible, you must: > Be an official resident of the state with a Washington street address. > Be 18 years old or older. > Not have held a Washington driver’s license, instruction permit, or a state ID card before. FWIW, outside of exceptions like voting “rights” are not something that is gifted to citizens in our country, the government is limited from infringing on rights and those extend to non-citizens. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/25 "2017-01-27T05:19:53Z")
Also…the constitution is important > [@](#): > > No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive **any person** of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to **any person** within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. “any person” == well any person. That is the whole point of the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. Although I do realize that Glenn Beck etc…typically have rhetoric that ignores this. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/26 "2017-01-27T06:23:49Z")
However, driving is not a right, nor is working. Well, working probably should be, but it isn’t. So you can’t excuse crimes involving driving and employment just because the immigrant “needs” to do it. He or she knew they’d have to break more than just one law to live here. the very act of living here illegally necessitates a lot of lawbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/27 "2017-01-27T06:41:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > However, driving is not a right, nor is working. Well, working probably should be, but it isn’t. So you can’t excuse crimes involving driving and employment just because the immigrant “needs” to do it. He or she knew they’d have to break more than just one law to live here. the very act of living here illegally necessitates a lot of lawbreaking. Thus “sanctuary cities/state” were we change the laws that we have control over…thus giving them the ability to get a drivers licenses and insurance, access to courts etc… All without paying for the Federal governments inability to enact legislation. But to be clear, I bet you broke several laws today, does that mean that you give up your right to probable cause? Or are you just arguing that the cities themselves are responsible when someone commits a crime against them (gives an invalid SSN)? When a state law enforcement officer witnesses a federal crime being committed and makes an arrest that officer is not acting on delegated federal power. But is rather action on the inherent power of his state to assist another sovereign. Are you really claiming that we should do away with states rights and force local governments to enforce federal law that does not line up with local priorities and give up all of our sovereignty? As I cited before immigrant groups, legal and illegal are statistically more “law abiding” than native citizens when it comes to state laws. Why should we drop violent and property crime case work and spend money to fix the problem the Feds created and which only the Feds can fix. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/28 "2017-01-27T07:04:35Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Are you really claiming that we should do away with states rights and force local governments to enforce federal law that does not line up with local priorities and give up all of our sovereignty? > > . So the South should have been able to ignore civil rights laws? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/29 "2017-01-27T07:09:47Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Cite that driving is a “right” or that it requires citizenship etc… > > Pro tip: no one has a “right to drive” Cite that I claimed anyone had a right to drive? Actually, please don’t try. I didn’t, and you missed the entire point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/30 "2017-01-27T07:17:29Z")
Now, further to what I was saying… I’m not at all unsympathetic with the plight of illegal aliens here. I work with several every day. If I had been in their shoes, I might well have done just what they did. But, if caught doing something illegal in a country I was not legally allowed to live in, I hope I would understand that it would be absurd to cry foul, and rather realize that I took a risk and got caught. I also understand the reasons behind the idea of allowing illegal aliens to get driving licenses. It might even be good policy. But if you don’t enforce border laws, you might as well not even have any. So, let’s be clear: Anyone here illegally risks being deported. That comes with the territory. If you break the law, no matter how well intentioned you are, and you bring yourself to the attention of the authorities, Don’t fucking be surprise if you get deported. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/31 "2017-01-27T07:22:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Cite that I claimed anyone had a right to drive? > > Actually, please don’t try. I didn’t, and you missed the entire point. Well then the entire post is an type invalid syllogism. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not circular reasoning. It’s a natural consequence of being in a country illegally. No one here illegally has a right to drive. Yes, it’s very difficult to live here without driving. SO THEN DON’T LIVE HERE, UNLESS YOU ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO!!! > > This is another good example to add to the: Why Democrats lose column. People here illegally should not be here. It’s too fucking bad if they can’t drive, which is why they should be in the country where they can drive. Both premises are negative, so there is no valid link link between the major and minor terms. > [@](#): > > No one here illegally has a right to drive. My cites show that non-residents can get DLs and insurance in some states, and citizens don’t have a right to drive. > [@](#): > > Yes, it’s very difficult to live here without driving. So as there is no “right to drive” and it is not impossible for an undocumented worker to get a DL are you saying that this is universal. (but also not true in many parts of the country) > [@](#): > > SO THEN DON’T LIVE HERE, UNLESS YOU ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO!! Seeing as your first term was meaningless, and the second is universal (kind of), what are you basing the last conclusion on then? Or is your argument that I shouldn’t debate in a forum called Great Debates? Because you know that I will not comply with a demand to not debate. Or am I suppose to just concede and accept invalid arguments? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/32 "2017-01-27T07:56:53Z")
I agree with sanctuary cities’ right to not enforce federal law. It’s not their responsibility. They don’t have to cooperate either. I just think that releasing criminals back into the population rather than handing them over to ICE after they’ve served their sentence is unwise. And frankly, seems to be prioritizing the interests of immigrants over the interests of citizens. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/33 "2017-01-27T08:01:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree with sanctuary cities’ right to not enforce federal law. It’s not their responsibility. They don’t have to cooperate either. I just think that releasing criminals back into the population rather than handing them over to ICE after they’ve served their sentence is unwise. And frankly, seems to be prioritizing the interests of immigrants over the interests of citizens. The ACLU just published a document covering why: Warning PDF [https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field\_document/aclu-trump-memos.pdf](https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu-trump-memos.pdf) > [@](#): > > The “no-catch-and-release” policy would violate U.S. immigration law and the Fifth > Amendment. > Trump has indicated that he does not support “catch and release” of noncitizens pending removal > proceedings, at least of those who enter the country without inspection.38 Any proposal to categorically > detain immigrants “until they are sent home” would violate both our immigration laws and the Due > Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment.39 It is well established that these due process principles “appl[y] > to all ‘persons’ within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence here is lawful, unlawful, > temporary, or permanent.”40 > As the Supreme Court has recognized, the legitimate “special justifications” for immigration detention are > “preventing flight” and “protecting the community” from danger.41 In addition, immigration detention > requires “strong procedural protections” to ensure that detention is serving a legitimate goal.42 Thus, > immigration detention generally requires an individualized determination of flight risk and danger to > the community.43 Specifically, the Immigration and Nationality Act44 and implementing regulations > entitle immigrants to an individualized bond hearing before an immigration judge to determine if their > detention is justified on these grounds.45 ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/34 "2017-01-27T08:25:32Z")
Note that the main cause for slow deportation is federal court backlogs [http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/405/](http://trac.syr.edu/immigration/reports/405/) The system just lacks the budget to process cases fast and they have only had minor budget increases for a very long time. Of course all of the money going to build a wall that everyone will just fly over won’t help this out at all. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/35 "2017-01-27T09:49:25Z")
We’re not talking about denying due process. These are people who have already been convicted of crimes and are supposed to be deported according to our laws. and deportation, while due process, is not a criminal action, it’s civil, so they can be ruled deported in absentia. If they don’t show for the hearing, a deportation order is issued and if they are found, they are immediately deported. In the case of criminals, the deportation courts can act while they are still in prison, and ICE can be there to pick them up on their release day. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/36 "2017-01-27T10:58:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > However, driving is not a right, nor is working. Well, working probably should be, but it isn’t. So you can’t excuse crimes involving driving and employment just because the immigrant “needs” to do it. He or she knew they’d have to break more than just one law to live here. the very act of living here illegally necessitates a lot of lawbreaking. So Deport Them All Because They are All Criminals. Houston isn’t a “Sanctuary City”–although it’s a poorly defined term. However, our Sheriff & Mayor were just on TV explaining that HPD will not quiz everyone on their immigration status. We want witnesses & victims able to talk to the cops without fear. Once someone’s in deep legal trouble, questions might be asked. I did see a sheriff from one of the Outlying Counties, who’d just apprehended a Colombian gang of burglers. (He got help from HPD–Barney Fife was not working alone.) They’d been in legal trouble on past sojourns here. However, they probably flew in… ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/37 "2017-01-27T12:12:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree with sanctuary cities’ right to not enforce federal law. It’s not their responsibility. They don’t have to cooperate either. I just think that releasing criminals back into the population rather than handing them over to ICE after they’ve served their sentence is unwise. And frankly, seems to be prioritizing the interests of immigrants over the interests of citizens. I think most sanctuary cities/states will turn over people where ICE has provided a court order. ICE may ask a local jail to hold someone for a few days after the criminal case is completed\* _without_ a court order and then decide not to deport that person/be unable to get a court order. And also not reimburse for the extra jail/prison days. - And I didn’t say after their sentence is completed for a reason- ICE asks for people who be detained who have not even been convicted. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/38 "2017-01-27T12:32:53Z")
I thought republicans were for states’ rights and local control. Why is Washington involved in trying to tell Miami-Dade how to police their residents. Sanctuary cities have a practical purpose of allowing basically otherwise law-abiding people of staying in the community with their families. Police need information from people in some of these communities. Turning local cops into ICE is going to shut off that flow of information. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/39 "2017-01-27T12:47:20Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > **I thought republicans were for states’ rights and local control.** Why is Washington involved in trying to tell Miami-Dade how to police their residents. Sanctuary cities have a practical purpose of allowing basically otherwise law-abiding people of staying in the community with their families. Police need information from people in some of these communities. Turning local cops into ICE is going to shut off that flow of information. Only when it suits them. Same for the Dems in the other direction. Look at the whole medical/recreational marijuana issue as a classic example. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2017, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289/40 "2017-01-27T13:20:55Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > So Deport Them All Because They are All Criminals. > > Houston isn’t a “Sanctuary City”–although it’s a poorly defined term. However, our Sheriff & Mayor were just on TV explaining that HPD will not quiz everyone on their immigration status. We want witnesses & victims able to talk to the cops without fear. Once someone’s in deep legal trouble, questions might be asked. > > I did see a sheriff from one of the Outlying Counties, who’d just apprehended a Colombian gang of burglers. (He got help from HPD–Barney Fife was not working alone.) They’d been in legal trouble on past sojourns here. However, they probably flew in… And that’s a proper use of local discretion. However, if you’ve got a criminal in your jails, let ICE know when their release date is. As for deportation for driving or working, depends on what the crime is. If they stole someone’s identity, jail 'em and boot 'em. If they used fake documents, charge them for that felony and boot 'em. If the employer just hired them despite no documents, then that’s on the employer. But getting fake documents or committing identity theft is a willful act, and “needing” to do it is no defense. At least not if you’re a citizen, apparently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-thought-we-all-agreed-that-we-should-deport-criminals/778289.md?page=3)