# I told you, didn't I? \[plagiarism in college\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 18, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597 "2014-12-18T18:52:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/81 "2014-12-20T21:55:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Gross negligence and “the dog ate my homework” are equivalent to intent as far as I’m concerned. But failure to quote a single sentence is not a moral failing, it’s just a technical violation deserving of a lower grade at worst. I don’t think it’s difficult to distinquish between mistakes and intentional plagiarism. I’m a librarian, not a priest, and it is not my job to determine what is and isn’t a moral failing. My job does however involve helping to teach undergraduates about what plagiarism is and how to avoid it. I would by lying to them about the standard definition of plagiarism and our university’s Honor Code, not to mention setting them up for a very rude awakening further down the road, if I told them that failure to quote a single sentence didn’t count as plagiarism. The punishment for plagiarism is largely up to the course instructor and the Honor Council. (Professors are not required to refer plagiarism cases to the Honor Council, but a student has the right to an Honor Council hearing if they want one.) A reduced grade on the assignment is the _minimum_ possible punishment if a student is found guilty of plagiarism by the Honor Council, and IIRC this is only an option for a first offense. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/82 "2014-12-20T22:25:51Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’m a librarian, not a priest, and it is not my job to determine what is and isn’t a moral failing. My job does however involve helping to teach undergraduates about what plagiarism is and how to avoid it. I would by lying to them about the standard definition of plagiarism and our university’s Honor Code, not to mention setting them up for a very rude awakening further down the road, if I told them that failure to quote a single sentence didn’t count as plagiarism. > > The punishment for plagiarism is largely up to the course instructor and the Honor Council. (Professors are not required to refer plagiarism cases to the Honor Council, but a student has the right to an Honor Council hearing if they want one.) A reduced grade on the assignment is the _minimum_ possible punishment if a student is found guilty of plagiarism by the Honor Council, and IIRC this is only an option for a first offense. I don’t see a disagreement here. I’d prefer that institution did not leave it up to the course instructor to determine what to do in cases of plagiarism, but I really don’t understand how that is such a controversial opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/83 "2014-12-20T22:30:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t see a disagreement here. I’d prefer that institution did not leave it up to the course instructor to determine what to do in cases of plagiarism, but I really don’t understand how that is such a controversial opinion. Who do you think should be assigning grades if not the course instructor? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/84 "2014-12-20T22:34:44Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Who do you think should be assigning grades if not the course instructor? Where do grades come in? I’m talking about the consequences of rule violations. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/85 "2014-12-20T22:46:55Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Where do grades come in? I’m talking about the consequences of rule violations. The most common consequence is a failing grade. We gave up boiling undergraduates in oil some years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/86 "2014-12-20T22:49:13Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Where do grades come in? I’m talking about the consequences of rule violations. I don’t think you even know what you’re talking about. The consequences for plagiarism are obviously going to involve the grade a student receives on an assignment or for the course as a whole. The punishment that _you_ suggested in post #71 was a reduced grade on the assignment. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/87 "2014-12-20T22:53:51Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > Damnation, I spoke too soon. It’s one of those cases where the student includes citations, but about one-third of the content, none of it in quotation marks, is copied word for word from the sources. She will swear that she has no idea how this has happened. > > And it will take me frickin’ forever to document. That’s a shame. I’ve taught at a variety of places, some low some high, but they always had a plagiarism policy which said intent doesn’t matter, mistakes don’t matter, if you use someone else’s work without citation you are guilty of plagiarism. Everywhere I have ever taught allowed me to set the penalties for plagiarism as I see fit, and so I have stuck by what I and my colleagues have always done (at a variety of institutions): F in the class for any plagiarism, no matter how small. So yes, I have failed people for plagiarizing on a weekly journal assignment that counts for almost none of the grade. To me it seems non-negotiable, and everywhere I have been both at good schools and very poor schools this has been the accepted norm. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/88 "2014-12-20T23:00:40Z")
To **Tripolar** ’s point, at every school where I’ve worked, the failing grade for the assignment was from the instructor. Any further sanction, such as failing the class or expulsion, was from some other administrative body. That seems reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/89 "2014-12-20T23:06:53Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > To **Tripolar** ’s point, at every school where I’ve worked, the failing grade for the assignment was from the instructor. Any further sanction, such as failing the class or expulsion, was from some other administrative body. That seems reasonable to me. The instructor should not be the person to determine who passes a class? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/90 "2014-12-20T23:12:18Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > The instructor should not be the person to determine who passes a class? They determine the grades of the assignments and tests, and the cutoff score for passing. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/91 "2014-12-20T23:12:21Z")
At both universities I’ve attended, the honor code stated the student would face automatic failure and expulsion. The instructor had no say. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/92 "2014-12-20T23:13:58Z")
To be fair, I’ve only worked at four schools that offer post-secondary degrees. I don’t know how things work elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/93 "2014-12-20T23:37:41Z")
I wonder why Professor **mhendo** doesn’t capitalize the first person singular pronoun “I” in his posts (except at the beginnings of sentences). ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/94 "2014-12-21T05:18:42Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I wonder why Professor **mhendo** doesn’t capitalize the first person singular pronoun “I” in his posts (except at the beginnings of sentences). Everyone else does it and he is afraid to copy them? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/95 "2014-12-21T05:20:56Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Way back in the dark ages, I took a required Electronics course which included labwork. Way back in the 40’s, my Dad took an Engineering laboratory subject where the Professor said to him “copy it from someone who has the right answers” Which at least had the truth of being the true engineering approach. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/96 "2014-12-21T05:27:08Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I wonder why Professor **mhendo** doesn’t capitalize the first person singular pronoun “I” in his posts (except at the beginnings of sentences). I noticed that, but since it was a erratic I assumed it was just a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/97 "2014-12-21T05:54:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > In what way is this an appropriate response to someone saying they disagree with you philosophically? Why must he be a moron to believe in the rule of law rather than the rule of man? That’s what he’s arguing, that you should have clear policies explaining what should happen to plagiarizers rather than making up your own punishment by fiat. He’s arguing that you should have rules you have to follow when it comes to this situation. What’s that? The sound of sanctimonious hoofbeats? It must be **BigT** riding in to white-knight a thread once again! I never once suggested that i don’t have rules to follow. Here are my university’s [academic honesty policies](https://www.csusm.edu/policies/active/documents/academic_honesty.html), outlining the requirements and procedures not only for students, but for faculty, and for the administration, represented by the Dean of Students. As you can see, there are requirements for people like me to follow. Perhaps the most germane to this discussion is Section III. F: > [@](#): > > Faculty have the ultimate responsibility and discretion when grading students who have been dishonest in class; however, faculty also have the responsibility to be fair and equitable to all students within the same class. Therefore, consequences for like offenses must be similar. It is pointless to be more specific than that, precisely because, as i said earlier in the thread, the types of work and the types of cheating we encounter vary wildly among the different disciplines. If the administration were to set hard and fast rules for every possible type of offense, the page i linked to would be thousands and thousands of words long. Responsibility is left with the faculty precisely because, in a university setting, the faculty are the ones given the professional responsibility of maintaining the integrity and standards of their own disciplines, and also with conforming to the overall standards of the university. > [@BigT](#): > > If you can make posts like this because someone dares disagree with you, why should we not believe that you would mistreat someone accused of plagiarism because they offended you in some way? What you believe about this particular issue concerns me about as much as what you believe about everything else: pretty much nothing. But, as a more general response, i would simply note that i do not “mistreat” people in my classes precisely because i have a sense of professionalism that i apply to my job. I can separate the things i say here on this message board from the things that i say and do in my capacity as a university instructor. I understand the difference between the work setting and the home setting. I understand that my professional relationships with my students is different, and requires different things from me, than my social relationships on internet message boards. Now, i admit, if i spent my whole life sitting a basement, playing on the internet and waiting for my mommy to bring me dairy-free cheese sandwiches, i might have some difficulty discerning the difference between professional obligations and personal obligations. Hopefully i have made the distinction clear for you now. > [@BigT](#): > > Heck, I’m pretty sure you do have rules. In any academic situation I am aware of, the teacher is not the final arbiter, and the student can appeal. You could have let him know this, but you’d rather insult him. Again, i never suggested otherwise. I never said that are no rules, and i’m well aware that students can appeal. In fact, one of the professional duties i perform, when i’ve caught a student plagiarizing, is to explain to them that i will be reporting the incident to the Dean of Students, and that if the student feels that i have been in any way unfair in my handling of the situation or in the penalty i have assessed, they will be able to have their say in front of the Dean. I also give these students the contact details of my Department Chair, and tell them that they are also welcome to contact her if they feel they have received unfair treatment. Take a guess at how many students have taken up the opportunity to appeal. That’s right, none. Not because i’m perfect, but because when i ding a student for plagiarism, i make sure to document everything thoroughly and to err on the side of caution. As i said earlier in the thread, if the copying is minor and i believe that it was inadvertent and not done with the intent to deceive, i usually cut students some slack, and give them a chance to redeem themselves. Of course, you didn’t bother to address that, maybe because your steed was galloping too quickly to the rescue of the internet downtrodden. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/98 "2014-12-24T01:09:19Z")
The most important rule of plagiarism, is of course: _[Only be sure always to call it please “research”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL4vWJbwmqM)_. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/99 "2015-01-13T17:14:07Z")
Well, the spring term has started, the students are back on campus and the perpetrators have had their chance to throw one of the group under the bus, the rest of the group claiming ignorance about what happened. Nope. Took about half an hour to even get them to admit to plagiarism, with the evidence projected on the wall. We - i.e. the Dept. head and I - were still in the mood for a bit of leniency after the Yule celebrations, so they got off easy. No reporting to the University administration, no suspension. Just a simple annulment of the course, a memo about the incident in their files and having to re-take the course in parallel with the other engineering courses they have, either this term or the next. I don’t envy them that; they’ll have to work their asses off to get decent grades with a 25% increase in workload in an already pretty work-intensive degree program. I’ve already asked - and been granted - not to be their tutor the next time they take the course. I doubt if I’d be able to keep a sufficiently professional distance to the incident. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597/100 "2015-01-13T19:46:55Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Just a simple annulment of the course, a memo about the incident in their files and having to re-take the course in parallel with the other engineering courses they have, either this term or the next. What exactly do you mean by “annulment”? The term seems to imply that the course will simply disappear from their record. Is that the case, or will their transcript show that they took the course and received a grade of F? IMO, it should definitely be the latter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-didnt-i-plagiarism-in-college/707597.md?page=6)