# I Told You So **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850 "2004-11-03T21:20:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/241 "2004-11-06T20:53:54Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Just the opposite is true now; there are plenty of threads where the discourse is frankly beneath me. And the intelligent criticism which was the whole attraction is more likely to be replaced by venomous diatribes from the usual suspects on the Idiot Fringe I think of this as the “Stoidization” of the the SDMB. Not that she is the worst proponent, simply the first, hence she gets the disease named after her i.e “Japanese type B encephalitis.” It pretty much started with her “Why I don’t trust Conservatives/Republicans” thread. The success of that paved the way for the attitudinal bigotry and lowest common denominator type discourse which has grown since. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/242 "2004-11-06T21:01:15Z")
Really. All by herself, with her own two little pink patty-paws? She did? And all the while, friend **Scylla** stood firmly for politesse and decorum, yes? Invariably eschewing any personal remarks, hewing only to propriety and calm discourse? That would be you, yes? Anyone who believes this, please contact me at the e-mail given, I know a guy in Nigeria, needs some assistance… ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/243 "2004-11-06T21:11:28Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > It pretty much started with her “Why I don’t trust Conservatives/Republicans” thread. > > The success of that paved the way for the attitudinal bigotry and lowest common denominator type discourse which has grown since. I remember that thread. That was a charmer. Republicans were evil and selfish, Democrats were wonderful, simple, simple simple. A more recent favorite of mine was the “Bush Supporters are Mentally Ill” (or something to that effect). Now, perhaps I missed some posts (I kind of gave up on it after a while), but that seemed to be a pretty unanimous wank-fest amongst _many_ people, whom I otherwise respected, talking about how crazy and irrational their Bush-supporting friends and relatives were. The OP claimed he was _serious_ in his claim (I asked) so it wasn’t a joke thread (though there was a cutesy yuk-yuk factor present). Some people here seem to be reluctant to accept that shit like that does make some people throw up their hands and say, “Screw this place. The inmates have taken over the asylum.” Some here seem to be claiming that people get fed up or frustrated because they can’t handle the **truth** , or **facts**? No, some people get fed up or frustrated because they are sick of the **assholes**. I mean, come on. Shit like that is offensive no matter whom it is directed towards—a thread titled “Why I don’t trust Democrats” and then goes on to ramble about how they’re all flakes or selfish, or one that makes the (serious) claim that Kerry supporters are mentally ill—that’d be pretty offensive to a lot of people. And rightfully so. But if it’s directed at conservatives, oh, hey. That’s perfectly fine. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/244 "2004-11-06T21:23:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > To recap: > [ul][li]Bush won [_]Republicans picked up seats in the House [_]Republicans picked up seats in the Senate [_]Republicans picked up several governorships [_]Bush is likely to appoint the next two to four Supreme Court justices [\*] **Hentor the Barbarian** is a classless, whiny sore loser.[/ul][/li] When it becomes clear that all of us have lost this election, I trust you will be a more classy loser. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/245 "2004-11-06T21:25:07Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > When it becomes clear that all of us have lost this election, I trust you will be a more classy loser. If you’re going to hold your breath on this, I’d notify your local ambulance service first… ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/246 "2004-11-06T22:19:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Some here seem to be claiming that people get fed up or frustrated because they can’t handle the truth, or facts? No, some people get fed up or frustrated because they are sick of the assholes. I’m sorry, but you are incorrect. While it is true that there were and are some very frustrating posters on this board, it was directly because Bush supporters had no factual or reasonable arguments to defend the Bush administration that debate became impossible, and the board was left with name-calling and rude behavior (which I abhore as well). But don’t take my word for it. The threads are still there, you can see it yourself. > **[Chalabi Gave Iranians Top Secret Info - Who Gave it To Him?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=259336)** > > Tne NY Times reports that “United States intelligence officials” are accusing Ahmad Chalabi of tipping off the Iranian government that the U.S. broke their secret communications code. Such knowledge would be classified at the very highest levels,... > **[Re Chalabi the Bush Admin neo-con hardliners are starting to look like...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=258836)** > > It’s odd how you can be a doughty, flint eyed warrior of freedom one moment, and 12 months later you are shown to be a hapless, stumble footed incompetent at MENA real politiking, and the dupe of a smooth, but fairly obvious con man, who has played... > **[DIA says Iran used INC to get US in Iraq?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257550)** > > Be honest, who’d saw this twist coming? I don’t klnow if this is going to stand the tests of time or not. So far there’s not much about it. But it’s pretty wild if true. Agency: Chalabi group was front for Iran BY KNUT ROYCE WASHINGTON BUREAU May... > **[Ahmad Chalabi: Best Hope for Iraq or Shady Expat Puppet?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=179503)** > > Bernard Lewis, the great and humane Middle East scholar, says that Chalabi is the best hope in this historic, perilous, and pivotal period for Iraq. OTOH many pundits are attacking him. E.g., Maureen Dowd wrote She also accused conservatives of... These are all threads dealing with the Bush Administration and Chalabi. They are full of facts and intelligent discourse(special recognition goes to the estimable SimonX), but they have no name-calling and rudeness. However, if you read through these threads, you will notice something else: Bush supporters avoided them like the plague. Only December and Sam Stone were there. December actually gets my respect for being there, trying to defend Chalabi. Even though he was wrong, at least he made the attempt. Sam Stone gets some respect too. He said it was not good for the Bush Administration. However, just saying it isn’t good for them is not taking them to task for it, and he neatly avoided doing so. Still, better than the rest of the Bush supporters. Where was Bricker? Shodan? Brutus? Starving Artist? Manhatten? Where was any Bush supporter to defend their side? They weren’t there. Because, in threads based on facts and intelligent debate, they had nothing to bring - because there was no intelligent or reasoned defense for the actions of the Bush administration. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/247 "2004-11-06T22:35:49Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > When it becomes clear that all of us have lost this election, I trust you will be a more classy loser. I could hardly be less so. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/248 "2004-11-06T22:55:35Z")
Earnest and sincere work, **Nightime** , commendable and probably futile. But this “Chalabi” fellow of whom you speak. I try to Google on him and all I get is a “non-person” message, and a few shreds of stuff. Something about what a rotten scoundrel he was, and how close he was to President Clinton, appearing as a special guest at President Clinton’s State of the Union Adress. How President Clinton had him flown into Iraq with a couple hundred of his thugs…uh, patriotic bodyguards…on the presumption that Iraq would fall at his feet kissing his brogans. All part of President Clinton’s failed policies, which got us into this wretched mess in Iraq, that The Leader is now toiling heroicly to fix. Boy, that Clinton…what an asshole, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/249 "2004-11-06T23:06:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Silly me. We have such stalwarts as **Shodan, Manhattan, Bricker** and **Starving Artist**. Men of probity and intelligence, firm supporters of The Leader. Surely they have the answer? > > What say you? How many, how much, how long? Care to go on record? Surely you thought this all through before you threw your support where you did? Enlighten us! That’s because being intelligent men of probity, we know that it is impossible to know just how it will turn out or what the eventual cost would be. Such is the nature of wars, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/250 "2004-11-06T23:09:20Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > As has been amply demonstrated in this thread, **you** are a lying sack of shit, so your calling the President a liar is ridiculous, at best. > > Pot\>Kettle\>Black There’s a fallacy in here somewhere… nope, it’s the whole substance of the argument. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/251 "2004-11-06T23:19:09Z")
**Nightime** , plenty of discussion on Chalabi and spying charges on right-wing websites. I avoid GD political threads altogether because it’s very frustrating to show the “other side” of the issue when people get it within themselves to automatically dismiss the other side and assume that its supporters are all mentally ill or fundie hickseeds. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/252 "2004-11-06T23:19:18Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > In all seriousness, the thing that really gets me is all the ignorance. You see it so often on these boards. Maybe it’s a very vocal minority of lefties that give me this impression, but I have a theory as to why the left is losing so badly. > > I’d like you to consider it if you’re on the left and upset about how wrong your country has gone. > > I submit to you that the reason you really lost is that you don’t know who we are, what motivates us, what we believe, and what we are trying to do. > > You think you do. You have a preconception. You’ve painted a picture in your heads and you interpret everything based on that picture. You’ve demonized your opposition, and you don’t know them and so you can’t defeat them. > > Now the pendulum has swung so far to the right that our system of checks and balances is in jeopardy. I think it’s in large part because of your ignorance. You’ve decided who we are and reacted to that perception. > > That perception is wrong, and you didn’t connect because nobody got your message because you weren’t relevant. > > If you want to defeat us, if you want to serve your country and make it better, if you want to restore the balance of power, you need to know us, and by knowing us, like and respect us. > > Once you really understand where the rest of the country is coming from. Once you look at them as your allies and friends, you can effect change and contribute. > > If you continue to misrepresent who we are and what we beleive and allow yourself the luxury of those misperceptions, you are going to continue to lose. Or, you can join Scylla et al, misrepresent and demonize who people on the left are, and win! It’s your choice! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/253 "2004-11-06T23:21:15Z")
At least you have the stones to step up and forthrightly evade the question. Worth some points. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/254 "2004-11-06T23:23:40Z")
Ooops, typed too slow. The last was directed towards **Starv** ’s deft evasion of my point. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/255 "2004-11-06T23:24:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Oh dear oh dear, **Hentor** called me a naughty name! Boohoohoo! I am all > upset and _everything_! > Let me see - whatever could I do to see if I should be as deeply upset as I am! Well, like Mr. Moto, you could always immediately start a thread whining about how its unPC to use “pussy” as an insult. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/256 "2004-11-06T23:43:20Z")
> [@](#): > > I avoid GD political threads altogether because it’s very frustrating to show the “other side” of the issue when people get it within themselves to automatically dismiss the other side and assume that its supporters are all mentally ill or fundie hickseeds. But contrary to what you say, the threads in which people were using language like “fundie hickseeds” were not the threads being avoided. That is my point: These same threads and people that are being called on their name-calling and offensiveness (and often rightly so) are the very threads and people that actually got a response. The threads that were based on reason, evidence, and intelligent debate? No response. The Bush supporters had no use for these kinds of threads, because they had no reasonable or intelligent argument for the actions of the Bush administration. Go read them yourself - you won’t find them there. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/257 "2004-11-06T23:47:24Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Or, you can join Scylla et al, misrepresent and demonize who people on the left are, and win! It’s your choice! I haven’t demonized anyone on this board, but have caught a large dose or shit around here owing to my expressed views. The points **Scylla** lists are valid, including the pendular swing, and I don’t support all of that swing, either. If you want me to vote for your platform, you’d do well to remember a business axiom: A successful salesperson does not sell, they create a desire to buy. Calling Bush voters names creates no buying feeling, and is akin to peeing yourself while wearing a dark suit. It gives you a temporary warm feeling, but nobody else cares or notices. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/258 "2004-11-06T23:51:36Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > There’s a fallacy in here somewhere… > nope, it’s the whole substance of the argument. > Carry on. If there’s a fallacy, point it out for us dumb people. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/259 "2004-11-06T23:54:00Z")
**Nightime** , I never said that there was any namecalling on those threads. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/260 "2004-11-06T23:55:06Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > Are we talking about demonizing the politicians, or the voters? > > You have a case if you mean demonizing the politicians on the “other” side, but I cannot believe that people came out in droves to vote on the side of the people who had told them that they were evil, stupid and bigoted. > > And _that’s_ what I’ve been talking about. That’s **ONLY** what I’ve been talking about—that the technique of telling people that they shouldn’t vote a certain way, and that anyone who votes that way is stupid, inferior, and evil—well, it doesn’t work. It doesn’t get more votes for your side. And isn’t what this is all about? To persuade people (voters) of the rightness of your side so that you’ll get their votes? You don’t do that by telling them that they are evil dumbshits who don’t know what’s good for them. BTW, I agree that there are more strident anti-Bush posters on this board. With that out of the way, I simply cannot agree that out there in the real world, Republicans/conservatives have any moral high ground when it comes to demonizing the other side INCLUDING demonizing people on the other side. For every liberal who labels the Bush supporters stupid, there is a Bush supporter who thinks the liberals are clueless naive peaceniks, hate America, are amoral or all of the above. For every urban New Yorker lampooning the people in rural America, there is someone in rural America (heck, religious preachers in churches) who talk of New York and California as full off lascivious godless amoral people who are responsible for some mythical moral fabric being torn. Let’s face the fact that there is a needless mindless cultural divide in this country which is getting more and more intense due to ridicule from both sides, and is duly exploited by politicians. People came out in droves because they were called stupid and not listened to. People came out in droves because they were called “liberal”, amoral, whatever. One side won but all of us will lose as long as this polarization continues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850.md?page=14)