# I Told You So **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850 "2004-11-03T21:20:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/261 "2004-11-07T00:14:04Z")
**Elucidator** to **Starving Artist** : “Scientifically prove God exists!” **Starving Artist** to **Elucidator** : “Sorry, you should know better. It isn’t possible to scientifially prove God exists.” **Elucidator** to **Starving Artist** : “Aha! I knew you’d evade the point! But hey, at least you did it deftly, so kudos to you for that.” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/262 "2004-11-07T00:17:09Z")
:smack: Nor is it possible for **SA** to correctly spell “scientifically” in an otherwise incredibly clever post. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/263 "2004-11-07T00:20:03Z")
Well, then, let me put it to you in less metaphysical terms. At what point would _you_ throw up your hands and say “Hold! Enough!”? 2,000 dead? 5,000? 10,000? Surely you realise that the rhetoric of “Bear any burden, pay any price” is just so much hot air? That even those who bear themselves as _uber_-hawks will begin making dovish cooing noises if popular support turns to popular wrath? Its happened before, I know, I was there. So answer just for yourself: how much is too much? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/264 "2004-11-07T00:23:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So answer just for yourself: how much is too much? Okay, I gave myself the answer. Anything else? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/265 "2004-11-07T00:28:03Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > I haven’t demonized anyone on this board, but have caught a large dose or shit around here owing to my expressed views. The points **Scylla** lists are valid, including the pendular swing, and I don’t support all of that swing, either. Scylla, actually, has been pretty much a sage gentleman in this thread. But please, give me a break with the “the right has been the calm, rational voices in a sea of irrational labeling and hatred, and that sort of thing just doesn’t win over our discriminating tastes” line. I respect nice honest discourse, but the discussion is framed larger than the particular posters on this board in the few particular contexts in which they’ve been polite. I give people like Scylla major kudos for putting up with THIS board, where the majority is leans left, rather than going to other boards where the balance is opposite. But to pretend that those other boards don’t exist, as often seems to be the implication, is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/266 "2004-11-07T00:28:26Z")
Cute. You wanna try and pretend _that_ wasn’t an evasion? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/267 "2004-11-07T00:29:54Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > I’m sorry, but you are incorrect. Perhaps I am _partially_ incorrect. I can’t speak for what went on in every thread. But you are deluded if you think that major assholishness had _nothing_ to do with some people throwing up their hands and saying “I give up. These people are past hope” and leaving threads or simply leaving the board. Heck—there are times when I’m tempted to do that, and I’m not a very active political poster. The _tone_ around here is starting to suck. I’m not the only one who has noticed it or commented on this problem. Of course, when more rational souls who try to address it in separate threads usually get their threads derailed with more “Bush is evil!” shit, which is completely beside the point. Look—the point is that people can disagree without being rabid assholes about it. But if any of you think that the frustration and anger are only rising because _they’re_ wrong and _you’re_ right? That is ludicrous. > [@litost](#): > > BTW, I agree that there are more strident anti-Bush posters on this board. Thank you. That is my main point. > [@](#): > > With that out of the way, I simply cannot agree that out there in the real world, Republicans/conservatives have any moral high ground when it comes to demonizing the other side INCLUDING demonizing people on the other side. Oh, absolutely I agree with you. I’ve taken pains several times to say that I’m sure right-leaning boards have an equal share of right-leaning rabid assholes. > [@](#): > > For every liberal who labels the Bush supporters stupid, there is a Bush supporter who thinks the liberals are clueless naive peaceniks, hate America, are amoral or all of the above. Of course there are. I’ve met people like this. I argue with them as well. I’m quite familiar with the scary, angry extremist conservative type. But I’m talking about _this_ board, and what’s going on _this_ board. Assholes are in abundance. Since this is a left-leaning board, more assholes are going to be left-leaning. And when you have a lot of people together who are thinking the same way, you also get more of a “bully mentality,” where asshole or outrageous behavior is more apt to go unchallenged or unchecked. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/268 "2004-11-07T00:41:02Z")
Excuse me, Ms. Chung, but you were the one who said “just for myself”…but you didn’t really mean that, did you, Connie? 😉 Still, the point remains. There is no specific answer to your question, so I’ll give you the answer I gave myself. I once asked a painter how long it should take to paint some particular thing (I forget specifically what). The answer I got was, “It should take as long as it takes to get it right!” That would pretty well sum up my sentiments regarding the war. Did we ask ourselves, while in the midst of WWI or WWII, at what point we would be willing to throw up our hands and give up, deciding the cost wasn’t worth it? No, we knew we had to win for the sake of our own country, no matter what the cost. The same holds true now. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/269 "2004-11-07T00:44:07Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > I’m sorry, but you are incorrect. > > While it is true that there were and are some very frustrating posters on this board, it was directly because Bush supporters had no factual or reasonable arguments to defend the Bush administration that debate became impossible, and the board was left with name-calling and rude behavior (which I abhore as well). > > But don’t take my word for it. The threads are still there, you can see it yourself. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=259336](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=259336) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=258836](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=258836) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257550](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=257550) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=179503](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=179503) > … > However, if you read through these threads, you will notice something else: Bush supporters avoided them like the plague. Only December and Sam Stone were there. > > December actually gets my respect for being there, trying to defend Chalabi. Even though he was wrong, at least he made the attempt. > > Sam Stone gets some respect too. He said it was not good for the Bush Administration. However, just saying it isn’t good for them is not taking them to task for it, and he neatly avoided doing so. > > Still, better than the rest of the Bush supporters. > > Where was Bricker? Shodan? Brutus? Starving Artist? Manhatten? Where was any Bush supporter to defend their side? > > They weren’t there. Because, in threads based on facts and intelligent debate, they had nothing to bring - because there was no intelligent or reasoned defense for the actions of the Bush administration. Thanks **Nightime**. Your post expresses my curiosity with greater clarity. Certainly better than I did: > [@](#): > > \*Yet WMD was a vital question. A question of objective fact sustained by evidence and a source of fertile debate. Where were Bricker’s uncanny powers of insight and prediction as this debate unfolded? > > Was Bricker perhaps holding them in reserve to assist a wager on a 50/50 propostion? Thence to bask in the glory of having guessed lucky. > > Or was Bricker in his timid and modest way restrained from voicing an honest opinion by the possible consequences for the Republican Party?..\* It is good to know I’m not the only one bugged by people weighing into discussion or refraining, according to the whether they can advance the cause of one political party. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/270 "2004-11-07T02:01:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > At what point would _you_ throw up your hands and say “Hold! Enough!”? 2,000 dead? 5,000? 10,000? > > Surely you realise that the rhetoric of “Bear any burden, pay any price” is just so much hot air? That even those who bear themselves as _uber_-hawks will begin making dovish cooing noises if popular support turns to popular wrath? Its happened before, I know, I was there. > > So answer just for yourself: how much is too much? Everybody we have plus one. Do or die, no alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/271 "2004-11-07T02:08:49Z")
Maybe I should elaborate further. If you decide that you have to fight, their can be no half measures. Either you are committed to victory or you are going to lose. There is no backout point. Before war become a rhetorical phrase used for “the war on poverty” or “the war on drugs,” these things were a little clearer. The war on terror is so far being fought old school. Destroy the enemy and take over the country he is in. If you and I are at war that means either you go, or I go. In this case we are going to destroy militant islamic fundamentalism… or we are going to be destroyed by it. So the answer is everything that we have. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/272 "2004-11-07T02:45:10Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Or, you can join Scylla et al, misrepresent and demonize who people on the left are, and win! It’s your choice! But Scylla gave us the “Evil Attack Blimp” thread, so he pretty much gets a lifetime pass in my book. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/273 "2004-11-07T03:11:15Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Maybe I should elaborate further. > > If you decide that you have to fight, their can be no half measures. Either you are committed to victory or you are going to lose. > > There is no backout point. Before war become a rhetorical phrase used for “the war on poverty” or “the war on drugs,” these things were a little clearer. > > The war on terror is so far being fought old school. Destroy the enemy and take over the country he is in. > > If you and I are at war that means either you go, or I go. In this case we are going to destroy militant islamic fundamentalism… or we are going to be destroyed by it. > > So the answer is everything that we have. Except that militant Islamic fundamentalism WAS under control in Iraq. At least until we went barging in with tanks and guns blazing. Hussein kept Al Qaeda mostly out of the country (there was the one operative who was hiding out in the American no-fly zone, of course). There was no home-grown America-hating organized armed insurgency before we invaded. The explosives and other weapons were under UN/IAEA control and inspection before we invaded. After we invaded…well…I don’t think I need new glasses to see how things are going over there. Not to mention that Iraq’s connection to TWAT was as tenuous as spider silk. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/274 "2004-11-07T03:16:50Z")
> [@Nightime](#): > > However, if you read through these threads, you will notice something else: Bush supporters avoided them like the plague. Only December and Sam Stone were there. > > December actually gets my respect for being there, trying to defend Chalabi. Even though he was wrong, at least he made the attempt. > > Sam Stone gets some respect too. He said it was not good for the Bush Administration. However, just saying it isn’t good for them is not taking them to task for it, and he neatly avoided doing so. > > Still, better than the rest of the Bush supporters. > > Where was Bricker? Shodan? Brutus? Starving Artist? Manhatten? Where was any Bush supporter to defend their side? > > They weren’t there. Because, in threads based on facts and intelligent debate, they had nothing to bring - because there was no intelligent or reasoned defense for the actions of the Bush administration. And these were the only threads I failed to post in. Every other thread, or at least every anti-Kerry thread, I posted in and attacked Kerry, right? Every thread that could be used to defend the administration, I posted in - right? RIGHT? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/275 "2004-11-07T03:31:30Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > If you and I are at war that means either you go, or I go. In this case we are going to destroy militant islamic fundamentalism… or we are going to be destroyed by it. > > So the answer is everything that we have. I’m reminded of a very old joke. A drunk is standing on the corner, under a streetlight, searching the ground for something he’s lost. A stranger comes along and tries to help. The stranger finally asks, “where exactly did you lose it?” The drunk replies “Oh, I lost it in the middle of the block.” Stranger: “Why are you looking _here_, then?” Drunk: “Because the light’s better here.” The Administration decided to search for Islamic fundamentalism where the light was better, IMHO. “Knee-deep in the big Muddy,” and Scylla says to push on. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/276 "2004-11-07T03:34:07Z")
Samclem: > [@Bricker](#): > > I think that edge has come from being called evil, racist, homophobic, bigoted, and an Uncle Tom on this board, with very little rebuttal or defense from others, and apologies later from, I think, no more than two or three of the attackers. > > Yeah, I’d say it’s given me a little edge. I’d be very interested in your reaction to this answer of mine. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/277 "2004-11-07T03:37:40Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I’m reminded of a very old joke. A drunk is standing on the corner, under a streetlight, searching the ground for something he’s lost. A stranger comes along and tries to help. The stranger finally asks, “where exactly did you lose it?” > > The drunk replies “Oh, I lost it in the middle of the block.” > Stranger: “Why are you looking _here_, then?” > Drunk: “Because the light’s better here.” > > The Administration decided to search for Islamic fundamentalism where the light was better, IMHO. > “Knee-deep in the big Muddy,” and Scylla says to push on. So you think “pushing on” in Iraq is a bad idea (if this is a bad interpetation of your “joke” than I fail to see what your point is.) Logically than, since you are against “pushing on” in Iraq, you beleive we should just abandon Iraq, take our troops home, and let the chips fall where they may. Is this an unfair or incorrect interpretation of your position? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/278 "2004-11-07T03:39:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Samclem: > > I’d be very interested in your reaction to this answer of mine. Me too to my response to that question. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/279 "2004-11-07T03:44:43Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > …So the answer is everything that we have. No, it isn’t. Stirring words, to be sure. And I don’t doubt your sincerity. If this were WWII, when we were attacked by a foreign power, that would have been one thing. But it isn’t, and we weren’t. Certainly not by Iraq. When you are a hammer, all problems look like nails. We have the most powerful state-on-state military force in human history, so we try to solve the problem of terror with armys and air forces. We are like a man tormented by a swarm of hornets, flailing wildly with a hammer. It is madness. Our attack on Iraq has not relieved our problem. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Nothing. For all the relevence, we might as well have attacked Belgium. Now we are in the perfectly ridiculous position of having to deal with Iraq _and_ terror simultaneously. We have infuriated our adversary, while strengthening his recruitment. We have given him one hundred new allies, while putting Saddam out of business. Saddam wasn’t the problem, he isn’t the solution. What have we gained? What have we shown the world, save that we are enraged, reckless, and cannot be reasoned with. We are in a war that must be fought by stealth, treachery, and betrayal. Armies, are useless, worse than useless. We need eyes and ears, and friends, in the slums of Hamburg and the streets of Ankara. Tell me how this war has gained us those friends and allies. Tell me who our new friends are, to replace the ones we insulted. Have you been keeping up? In the last few days, several more of our “coalition” have bailed. This war is folly, and the men who led us into this war are dangerous fools. So long as you cannot admit that, you can make no progress. I am older than you, friend **Scylla**. I was a young man when the last helicopter lifted out of Saigon. And for years before that day, men had been sternly and firmly saying exactly that: we are committed, there is no retreat, all we have, plus one. It wasn’t true then, its not true now. One innocent life was too much, an obscene price for this folly. A thousand more will not make it wise, ten thousand more will not make it victory. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/280 "2004-11-07T03:56:18Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Logically than, since you are against “pushing on” in Iraq, you beleive we should just abandon Iraq, take our troops home, and let the chips fall where they may. > > Is this an unfair or incorrect interpretation of your position? Incorrect interpretation. We’re there, we can’t abandon. We caused the horror that the population is going through. We have to do our best to make it as right as we can. MY cheap shot at you was simply about your attitude— “my country, right or wrong.” That’s the way I perceived your post. You said > [@](#): > > The war on terror is so far being fought old school. Destroy the enemy and take over the country he is in. See **jayjay’s** post. He said it better than I could have. The Islamic terrorist that you were seeking weren’t in Iraq. (But they are now). Better you should have led your troops into Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. But that wouldn’t have been “politic.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850.md?page=15)