# I Told You So **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850 "2004-11-03T21:20:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/421 "2004-11-09T16:35:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Have I a better plan? Nope, and no one else does either. I am only trying to salvage what little benefit can be gleaned from this shitstorm: that those who will not learn from history are doomed to make the rest of us repeat it. And to insist that the authors of this madness never again hold any position of reponsibility. Ever. I believe they like to call that “accountability”. Accountability? From Cheney and Bush? Get out of town, you prankster! What’s the next trick, spinning straw from gold? The GOP does not believe in being held accountable for anything they have done–note how much they like to lay blame for the sluggish economy and the current war on terror on Clinton and the Dems, despite Bush having president for the past 4 years and the GOP being in total control of the government for the past two. And if we can’t kill Zarkawi and Bin Laden’s followers, I’d settle for just those two and however many Islamofascists we can blow to hell with them. > [@](#): > > And brother? I am mad as hell. [/quote] You ain’t the only one. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/422 "2004-11-09T16:40:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Honestly… I don’t see what’s wrong with laying this at the feet of Bush supporters. This is what they voted for, and they have nobody to blame but themselves each and every single time bush’s administration makes an error in tactics or strategy and American and Iraqis die, needlessly, as a result. > > For the love of the Gods! > The man has a track record. > They supported that. > And although I offer my heartfelt prayers for the speedy and peaceful end to all conflicts in Iraq, I will reserve the right to say “I told you so.” Every time their golden boy fucks up, again, the same way he has been. > > Mission Accomplished. > Indeed. I’m all for holding the GOP’s feet to the fire for their incompetetn prosecution of the war, but I want us to take care to be seen as the loyal opposition. Oppose GOP incompetence, but support victory for the US and Iraq against the Islamist insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/423 "2004-11-09T16:46:05Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I’m all for holding the GOP’s feet to the fire for their incompetetn prosecution of the war, but I want us to take care to be seen as the loyal opposition. Oppose GOP incompetence, but support victory for the US and Iraq against the Islamist insurgents. Then you need better spin then them, because they’re going to be trying like hell to do the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/424 "2004-11-09T16:47:09Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I’m all for holding the GOP’s feet to the fire for their incompetetn prosecution of the war, but I want us to take care to be seen as the loyal opposition. Oppose GOP incompetence, but support victory for the US and Iraq against the Islamist insurgents. With all due respect, I think that the republicans have the memesphere pretty much blanketed with the “If you oppose us you’re a coward/un-american/un-patriotic/a traitor/not optimistic/hurting the war effort/not respecting our troops/etc…” meme. I don’t think it matters if we **are** the loal opposition, I don’t think the republicans want us to be **seen** as such. I know that for the last four years I’ve been nothing but a loyal American citizen. Fat lot of good that’s done. However, I do think that your political ‘spin’ has a much better chance of working than my political ranting. (And it’d be neat to see a group called 'blowjobs for civility.") ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/425 "2004-11-09T16:58:38Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I’m all for holding the GOP’s feet to the fire for their incompetetn prosecution of the war, but I want us to take care to be seen as the loyal opposition. They will never permit that. Ever. Given a choice between surrendering power and slandering and defaming the loyal opposition, which course do you think they will choose? > [@](#): > > …Oppose GOP incompetence, but support victory for the US and Iraq against the Islamist insurgents. Victory. Sweet suffering Jesus, what is “victory”? What will it look like, how will we know? Will we rely on the word of the same men who got us into this shitstorm? What price are you willing to pay, in lives? 2,000? 5,000? 10,000? More? At what point will you cry “Hold! Enough!” How many perfectly innocent lives have we already sacrificed? We have no idea. Let that sink in for a moment. We have _no_ idea! Somewhere between 13,000 and 100,000? Maybe. And for each of those innocent lives squandered, how many implacable enemies have were created? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/426 "2004-11-09T17:08:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Victory. Sweet suffering Jesus, what is “victory”? What will it look like, how will we know? Will we rely on the word of the same men who got us into this shitstorm? What price are you willing to pay, in lives? 2,000? 5,000? 10,000? More? At what point will you cry “Hold! Enough!” How many perfectly innocent lives have we already sacrificed? We have no idea. Let that sink in for a moment. We have _no_ idea! Somewhere between 13,000 and 100,000? Maybe. And for each of those innocent lives squandered, how many implacable enemies have were created? Why… whatever may be wrong with you? Haven’t you heard? **This** _is_ winning. The war is going just peachy. Everything is as it should be. Nothing was mismanaged. There are no systemic problems. There is no failure at the level of highest leadership. There was a catastrophic sucess, so like, it’s all good. We found and destroed all the WMD’s. We’re winning hearts and minds. We’re stopping the spread of terrorism, hell, the Muslim world thinks our invasion of iraq is so cool, there are actually fewer terrorists being recruited. There’re no problems in Iraq that aren’t fully under our control. We do not need more troops. Rumsfeld was right. The Powell doctrine is just plain silly. Going it alone (with Poland and the brits Blair sent) was the right move Things are going fine Things are going fine Things are going fine What’s wrong with you anyway? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/427 "2004-11-09T17:14:16Z")
I would submit to the GOP supporters that [this](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041107/481/bag10211070833) is what they voted for. This is what they support, this is what they cheered for, this is theirs. And there’s plenty more where this came from. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/428 "2004-11-09T17:26:51Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Good point, **elucidator**. That guy was another different conservative - the one they just elected as Senator, [Tom Coburn](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/12/ok.coburn.schools.ap/). These are the conservatives, folks. Moderates like Arlen Specter have become “problems” for the party to deal with. Watch Lincoln Chaffee, Olympia Snow and others for the changes, and try and keep up. See the mandate in action! HA! You only _wish_ the “rampant lesbianism” comment was the most offensive thing Tom Coburn has said, or, believe it or not, actually advocates. > [@](#): > > [http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/002292.html](http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/002292.html) > > It was bad enough when Oklahoma Senate candidate and former House Rep. Tom Coburn ® announced he wants to execute physicians for performing a legal medical procedure. > > **"I favor the death penalty," Coburn said, "for abortionists and other people who take life."** > > \ > > But if there’s any doubt that Bush’s man in Oklahoma is a little out of the mainstream, there’s always Coburn’s opinions about gay people, which John Aravosis noted today. > > Last year to the Rogers County Republicans he said, **"… The gay community has infiltrated the very centers of power in every area across this country, and they wield extreme power. … That agenda is the greatest threat to our freedom that we face today. Why do you think we see the rationalization for abortion and multiple sexual partners? That’s a gay agenda."** Lovely, huh? The “gay agenda” is a bigger threat to our freedom than terrorism. Wow. Just, wow. But wait, it gets better… > [@](#): > > He’s also the man George W. Bush picked to head his presidential AIDS commission. Yes, this anti-gay nutjob was picked by our fearless leader to help decimate the government’s attack on the AIDS epidemic. G-d/Allah/SkyPixie/Buddah/Etc., bless the U.S.A. (we’re gonna need it!). You can’t talk “nice” to people who would overwhelmingly choose this hateful bastard to represent them, and think that’s gonna convince them that the Democratic candidate is a better choice. Not. Possible. They vote on hate. Period. _This_ is why we lost Senate and House seats in addition to the presidency, _not_ because _we_ used a “bad tone.” GMAFB. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/429 "2004-11-09T17:52:23Z")
He represents me as much as Cynthia McKinney represents you two. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/430 "2004-11-09T18:09:04Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > He represents me as much as Cynthia McKinney represents you two. What’s wrong with Cynthia McKinney? In fact, she is a perfect example of lies being the province of the right. [http://www.alternet.org/story/16172](http://www.alternet.org/story/16172) Unless you dislike her for something else. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/431 "2004-11-09T18:22:25Z")
**John** , no one is accusing you of anything wretched simply for being a Republican. There are any number of upstanding and worthy Republicans that I am proud to argue with. Republicans who are dismayed that their party is being hijacked by loonies and nutbars. Republicans who wouldn’t dream of slandering another persons patriotism and loyalty simply for political gain. Such as these are honorable, and I honor them. No, you only have to be concerned if you voted to ratify this regime, if you voted to throw your support behind its policies. In which case, it hardly matters what your party affiliation is, does it? Since I have no party affiliation, the entire point is moot, so far as I am concerned. And since I voted against them, my conscience is clear, though I remain sorely troubled. So tossing Ms. McKinney at me is a waste of keyboard. And until you actually defend those policies which I find loathesome, I will presume you to be a man of good will, and rest assured you will profer the same to me. Upon preview: WTF? Have I been caught with my mental pants down? I assumed that the quotes were accurate, simply because I couldn’t imagine anyone making something like that up. I still find it difficult. Perhaps this deserves a thread of its own so that the matter can be nailed down. Friend **Hentor** has certainly provided an initial cite, unless he can be refuted, this is pretty damning stuff. Jury out. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/432 "2004-11-09T18:43:29Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > What’s wrong with Cynthia McKinney? > > In fact, she is a perfect example of lies being the province of the right. > > [http://www.alternet.org/story/16172](http://www.alternet.org/story/16172) > > Unless you dislike her for something else. NPR and the New York Times are “the right?” That’s… um… that’s… That’s not something I had heard before. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/433 "2004-11-09T18:45:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Upon preview: WTF? Have I been caught with my mental pants down? I assumed that the quotes were accurate, simply because I couldn’t imagine anyone making something like that up. I still find it difficult. Perhaps this deserves a thread of its own so that the matter can be nailed down. Friend **Hentor** has certainly provided an initial cite, unless he can be refuted, this is pretty damning stuff. Jury out. You can read the full version of that story, [here](http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=229&row=1). Of particular note: > [@](#): > > Hi, Lynette. My name is Greg Palast, and I wanted to follow up on a story of yours. It says, let’s see, after the opening – it’s about Cynthia McKinney – it’s dated Washington byline August 21. “McKinney’s [opponent] capitalized on the furor caused by Miss McKinney’s suggestion this year that President Bush might have known about the September 11 attacks but did nothing so his supporters could make money in a war.” Now, I have been trying my darndest to find this phrase . . . I can’t. . . > > \ > > (Lynette Clemetson, New York Times): “I think you have to go back to the House transcripts… I mean it was all over the place at the time.” > > Yes, this is one fact the Times reporter didn’t fake: The McKinney “quote” was, indeed, all over the place: in the Washington Post, National Public Radio, and needless to say, all the other metropolitan dailies–everywhere but in Congresswoman McKinney’s mouth. > > Nor was it in the Congressional Record, nor in any recorded talk, nor on her Website, nor in any of her radio talks. \*\*Here’s the Congresswoman’s statement from the record: > > “George Bush had no prior knowledge of the plan to attack the World Trade Center on September 11.” \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/434 "2004-11-09T18:58:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > NPR and the New York Times are “the right?” > > That’s… um… that’s… > > That’s not something I had heard before. You’re not dumb, so why are you acting like it? NPR, the Times, etc., reported it, but _who originated the lie in the first place, and spread it throughout the press, huh_? The press didn’t make it up out of whole cloth – it _supposedly_ came from a statement she made on the HOUSE FLOOR. But Congressional records show her explicitly stating EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. So who, _on the House Floor_, twisted her words in an effort to paint her with this dispicable lie? A _Democrat_, perhaps? Please! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/435 "2004-11-09T19:06:38Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > You’re not dumb, so why are you acting like it? NPR, the Times, etc., reported it, but _who originated the lie in the first place, and spread it throughout the press, huh_? The press didn’t make it up out of whole cloth – it _supposedly_ came from a statement she made on the HOUSE FLOOR. But Congressional records show her explicitly stating EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE. So who, _on the House Floor_, twisted her words in an effort to paint her with this dispicable lie? A _Democrat_, perhaps? Please! Watch out, Shayna - he’s going to start citing Zell Miller’s role in spreading this lie. I consider Miller a member of the Right and a conservative, but he’s arguably also a “Democrat.” But otherwise, you’re absolutely right, and the NYT person described the story as being out there all over the place, so they stupidly picked it up. If anyone actually needs me to clarify, I don’t think the NYT originated this story. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/436 "2004-11-09T19:11:08Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > What’s wrong with Cynthia McKinney? > > In fact, she is a perfect example of lies being the province of the right. > > [http://www.alternet.org/story/16172](http://www.alternet.org/story/16172) > > Unless you dislike her for something else. I most certainly do. > **[Maybe, Congresswoman, people don't listen to you because you're an idiot.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=95972)** > > From today’s Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3608-2001Oct28.html For those unfamiliar with the current imbraglio, here’s the deal. Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal came to the United States, saw the damage at the WTC,... Long story short- after the 9/11 attacks, a Saudi Prince offered $10 million to NYC to assist in rebuilding… **if** the US would “reexamine its policies in the Middle East and adopt a more balanced stance toward the Palestinian cause” and examine what the US had done to cause such an event to happen. Said Saudi Prince was told by Guiliani and Powell that he should take his offer elsewhere. McKinney pops up and writes an open letter to the Saudi Prince, stating that there were many African-American organizations who would love the $10 million, and who would be more than happy to press for the US to abandon Israel. (Not in so many words, of course, but this is long story short, not short story long). For this, William Raspberry in an editorial in the Washington Post took her to task for “pimping our plight” and for badmouthing our government directly to foreign leaders. McKinney responded with “I believe that when it comes to major foreign policy issues, many prefer to have black people seen and not heard.” This in a response to African-American columnist William Raspberry. While Colin Powell is Secretary of State. Rep. McKinney may do good work, and she may have been unfairly brushed with the quote you talk about, Hentor, but unless the Washington Post editorial she wrote to beg for the money from the prince and her rebuttal to Raspberry was a complete fabrication, she will always seem to me a classless race demagouge. > [@elucidator\[/quote](#): > > And until you actually defend those policies which I find loathesome, I will presume you to be a man of good will, and rest assured you will profer the same to me. I do, and I appreciate that; there’s just only so much can hear of “you Republicans” and “your party” before I feel tarbrushed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/437 "2004-11-09T19:44:51Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > Long story short- after the 9/11 attacks, a Saudi Prince offered $10 million to NYC to assist in rebuilding… if the US would “reexamine its policies in the Middle East and adopt a more balanced stance toward the Palestinian cause” and examine what the US had done to cause such an event to happen. Said Saudi Prince was told by Guiliani and Powell that he should take his offer elsewhere A perfectly fair offer by the the Prince and a totally dick move my Giuliani and Powell. It showed that they cared more about their own stupid-ass, rah rah Amerkin’ egos than they did about helping people. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/438 "2004-11-09T19:57:26Z")
**Shayna** , here’s the rest of McKinney’s quote: > [@](#): > > I am not aware of any evidence showing that President Bush or members of his administration have personally profited from the attacks of 9-11. **A complete investigation might reveal that to be the case.** For example, it is known that President Bush’s father, through the Carlyle Group had – at the time of the attacks – joint business interests with the bin Laden construction company and many defense industry holdings, the stocks of which, have soared since September 11. > > On the other hand, what is undeniable is that corporations close to the Administration, have directly benefited from the increased defense spending arising from the aftermath of September 11. The Carlyle Group, DynCorp, and Halliburton certainly stand out as companies close to this Administration. Secretary Rumsfeld maintained in a hearing before Congress that we can afford the new spending, even though the request for more defense spending is the highest increase in twenty years and the Pentagon has lost $2.3 trillion. Bolding mine. So while she technically said “I am not aware of any evidence…” the full quote gives it a different context. I don’t want to get into a Democrat/Repub pissing contest (I know I’m in the wrong place) but the fact that Alternet and Greg Palast don’t show the full quote and its implications is disingenuous at best. [sub]“I personally know of no evidence that my opponent is a pigfucker, but let’s launch an investigation just in case it is true…”[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/439 "2004-11-09T19:59:36Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > So? Am I denying that there is obnoxiousness on the Republican side? Didn’t I already say that people should distance themselves from obnoxious personalities if they want to have credibility? Not to mention the fucking Swift Boat ads and the Anti-Kerry Propoganda “documentary” aired by Sinclair. It is illogical for a swing voter to vote for Bush because Michael Moore is an asshole who distorts facts and they don’t want to be associated with that, because under the same logic they are also giving their moral support to the Swift Boat liars. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/440 "2004-11-09T20:20:18Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Not to mention the fucking Swift Boat ads and the Anti-Kerry Propoganda “documentary” aired by Sinclair. It is illogical for a swing voter to vote for Bush because Michael Moore is an asshole who distorts facts and they don’t want to be associated with that, because under the same logic they are also giving their moral support to the Swift Boat liars. Wait, I want clarification here. Are you saying the SBVFT campaign was the deciding factor? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850.md?page=23)