# I Told You So **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850 "2004-11-03T21:20:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/481 "2004-11-10T05:03:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And yet, knowing that, you choose to support those who are wrong… Cite? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/482 "2004-11-10T05:04:29Z")
You? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/483 "2004-11-10T05:06:26Z")
> [@Random](#): > > If true, that’s a tragedy. Unfortunately, innocents die in wars, even if the combatants to everything possible to avoid it. It’s too bad his parents didn’t take their children out of the city before the fighting began, as it was obvious to everyone what was going to happen, and the authorities bombarded the city with leaflets warning civilians to evacuate. Do you realize how hard it is to evacuate a Fist World city prior to a natural disaster? Fla just went through a few of those these past summer and they were somewhat chaotic despite having the full backing of every available resource – including gobs of money. How do you think such a massive evacuation would - or could – turn out in a Third World city already devastated by prior bombings? Moreoever, where, exactly, are these wondering nomads supposed to go while everything they have ever owned is being blown to smithereens? How many of the ones that left or remain alive after this do you think will have warm, cozy feelings towards the US of A? Who, exactly, is it that you’re killing there and why? Far as I can tell, their only ‘crime’ is wanting the occupiers to leave their country. By that measure, it would make a huge percentage of the Iraqi population ‘insurgents’ – do they need killing too? Lastly, if the aim was to get Zarqawi, it’s long been recognized that he’s fled the city – along with many of the more active insurgents. In fact, did you happen to notice what was happening [elsewhere in Iraq today?](http://www.boston.com/dailynews/314/world/Developments_in_Iraq_:.shtml) > [@](#): > > Hundreds of armed insurgents took up positions in the center of Ramadi, another insurgent stronghold 70 miles west of Baghdad. Fierce clashes erupted to the northwest of the city, and explosions rocked a nearby U.S. base, police and eyewitnesses said. > > Gunmen fatally shot a provincial council member in central Iraq. Kamil Iliyan, a prominent member of one of Samarra’s biggest tribes, was shot twice in the head. > > Several heavy explosions hit central Baghdad after nightfall, followed by the rattle of small arms fire. Baghdad’s international airport was closed to military traffic after a missile was fired at a C130 transport plane. The plane escaped by dropping chaff that diverted the missile. And that’s just a small sampling. So, what’s the plan, kill them all? Is that what they now call “freedom” in Bushland? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/484 "2004-11-10T05:14:18Z")
> [@Random](#): > > Gosh, you’re right! How could I have been so blind? War is never justified, and leaders who rally the population in its favor are always evil. > > I guess I’ll strike Winston Churchill and Abraham Lincoln off my list of heroes. No. In your case, all you need do is add DimSon to your list. 'cause, clearly, the Iraq invasion is at least as justified as the Civil War and WW-II. After all, I am the blind one that hasn’t found WMDs and ties to AQ. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/485 "2004-11-10T05:40:15Z")
Fropis! Fropis, fropis, FROPIS!!! ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/486 "2004-11-10T08:13:00Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > BTW, that latter quote should have said “anonymous” as opposed to The Bard. It’s misattributed to him for some time – but no one, AFAIK, has been able to determine source with any degree of veracity. > > The sentiments expressed therein however, stand stronger than ever. I’m curious about the sentiments of others whom have led powerful nations. What do you beleive Stalin would have said about this? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/487 "2004-11-10T08:32:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Find your own suc… er, betting partners. This one’s mine. Bricker, I just thought of a side bet. (being your thread, I assume you won’t mind this) Being that we both believe the GOP will pick up more seats in '06, how about an over/under wager between us? Let’s say $20 just to keep it interesting. (Hell I’ll wager a nickle as the money isn’t as important as actually winning the bet.) This is the perfect bet! Whomever loses the bet isn’t out an appreciable amount, and both bettors are happy with the added seats! How 'bout it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/488 "2004-11-10T08:36:54Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > I do believe there is a method of expressing dissent that doesn’t simultaneously _suck_ and alienate people. Make of that what you will. Here is the problem: our side is held to this standard, sometimes held to it even when it is innocent of violating it (such as when Michael Moore, who isn’t even a Democrat and didn’t even support Kerry, is held to embody the “tone” of Kerry’s campaign). Your side gets to parade around people that want gay people in jail and thinks that liberalism is a form of mental disease. It sucks, and it alienates people. But basically, that doesn’t matter, because it’s also cheers on enough other people to help win elections. What I make of it is that your advice, while true and important, is basically disingenous. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/489 "2004-11-10T08:51:31Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Do you realize how hard it is to evacuate a Fist World city prior to a natural disaster? Fla just went through a few of those these past summer and they were somewhat chaotic despite having the full backing of every available resource – including gobs of money. We only had 24-72 hours’ warning, not several months. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/490 "2004-11-10T08:55:04Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Here is the problem: our side is held to this standard, sometimes held to it even when it is innocent of violating it (such as when Michael Moore, who isn’t even a Democrat and didn’t even support Kerry, is held to embody the “tone” of Kerry’s campaign). Wait a minute. I’ve heard plenty here on this board applaud and defend Moore. Not all of you, but man—I remember when that movie came out, there were a lot of people here praising it. > [@](#): > > Your side gets to parade around people that want gay people in jail and thinks that liberalism is a form of mental disease. Wasn’t there a thread in the Pit that said (with an element of seriousness) that Bush voters were mentally ill? That was a fairly popular thread too. > [@](#): > > It sucks, and it alienates people. Yeah, it sure does suck. It sucks no matter who does it. From what I’ve seen, plenty of people\*\* on this board\*\* are doing it, and newsflash: many of them weren’t Bush voters. But you know, keep on doing it. If it makes you happy to alienate people (and this applies to both sides), then, oh my gosh—don’t let the fact that it’s _alienating people_ stop you. Keep it up. Seriously. Really. Keep doing what you’re doing. It’s working _really_ great for you. Step it up a few notches while you’re at it. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/491 "2004-11-10T09:03:38Z")
**yosemite** is hereby nominated for new DNC Chairman. (As long as you make **Bricker** your chief advisor). Even with you guys running the DNC, I suspect they’d have a better chance of winning over the next 4 years. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/492 "2004-11-10T09:10:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Wait a minute. I’ve heard plenty here on this board applaud and defend Moore. Not all of you, but man—I remember when that movie came out, there were a lot of people here praising it. Which is neither here nor there. Moore is not a ranking member of the Democratic Party. He doesn’t participate in writing its platform, and he was never officially involved with Kerry’s campaign. He supported Wesley Clark, and then Kucinich. Kerry was basically everything in the Democratic Party that Moore was against: only Joementum would have been worse for him. > [@](#): > > Wasn’t there a thread in the Pit that said (with an element of seriousness) that Bush voters were mentally ill? That was a fairly popular thread too. Re-read my thread. I wasn’t saying “oh, but there are no liberal-wackjobs.” > [@](#): > > But you know, keep on doing it. If it makes you happy to alienate people (and this applies to both sides), then, oh my gosh—don’t let the fact that it’s alienating people stop you. Keep it up. Seriously. Really. Keep doing what you’re doing. It’s working really great for you. Step it up a few notches while you’re at it. You aren’t listening. My point is that your claim that it’s bad is quite true, as is the idea that both sides do it. But the implication that it in general hurts parties doesn’t seem to be true. It doesn’t hurt your party, at least not as much. And in the case of your party, many of your wackjobs actually are in positions of real political power and leadership that get to do things like write the party platform, rather than being slovenly media figures with big mouths. Which makes your advice, while again perhaps quite true, still somewhat disingenuous. You speak as if you were imparting a deep lesson about politics, but the lesson seems both transitory and false depending on which side of the political spectrum you happen to be on. The lesson basically boils down to that the left shouldn’t do what the right has free reign to do, because the left pays consequences for it that the right does not. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/493 "2004-11-10T09:32:01Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > **yosemite** is hereby nominated for new DNC Chairman. (As long as you make **Bricker** your chief advisor). Even with you guys running the DNC, I suspect they’d have a better chance of winning over the next 4 years. 😃 Thanks, but no way! For one thing, I have been known to vote for Democrats as well as Republicans, and for another thing, I’m _definitely_ a political lightweight. > [@Apos](#): > > . Kerry was basically everything in the Democratic Party that Moore was against: only Joementum would have been worse for him. Maybe Moore himself wasn’t representative of Kerry’s side, but many of Kerry’s supporters _loved_ this movie and highly recommened it. That film wasn’t some obscure, fringe project that only whack-jobs appreciated. > [@](#): > > The lesson basically boils down to that the left shouldn’t do what the right has free reign to do, because the left pays consequences for it that the right does not. Okay, I get it. So “your side” (the side I occasionally vote with, by the way) takes a hit more. There are probably more dynamics going on there (which I am ill-equiped to clarify), but let’s say for the sake of argument that you’re 100% spot-on. So what you’re saying is that “your side” pays more consequences for this behavior, so, with that knowledge, it’s okay to keep behaving in a way that results in these negative consequences? If that’s the case, fine. Do whatever it is you feel you must do, even if the consequences are negative for your cause. If that’s what you really want, who am I to disagree? If that’s not the case, I apologize for misunderstanding, and I wish you the best in finding a way to improve the tone in order to minimize these bad consequences. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/494 "2004-11-10T09:37:51Z")
Oh, I forgot to comment on this: > [@](#): > > You speak as if you were imparting a deep lesson about politics, No, I thought it was fairly obvious. Sort of like my friend wearing her ill-fitting pants. Looking in the _mirror_ should have told her that she looked like absolute crap, but she wouldn’t believe it, and continued to not believe it. It felt strange to tell her something so blatantly obvious, but I felt bad that people were laughing at her. But she didn’t want to listen to me? Fine, fine, fine. Like I said before, when the Bush voters on that aforementioned thread explained that the “tone” was a factor in their voting choice, it seems pretty obvious that\* something\* is amiss. But hey, never mind. You know what’s best. You know what you see in the mirror, you know what pleases you. Who am I to argue with that? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/495 "2004-11-10T12:07:37Z")
> [@furt](#): > > We only had 24-72 hours’ warning, not several months. We gave several months warning of the attack on Falluja? Do you have a cite for that? Where did you want them to go for several months? How would they get there? Where would they live? How would they buy food? What schools would their kids go to? If you are blaming the citizens of Falluja for getting themselves killed, you clearly aren’t thinking this one through. Can you only imagine the impact on the Middle East, let alone the rest of the world, of this attitude? I suspect they are seeing far more pictures of dead Iraqis than we are. You might not want to be blaming them for being in the way. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/496 "2004-11-10T12:25:32Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > If you are blaming the citizens of Falluja for getting themselves killed, you clearly aren’t thinking this one through. Can you only imagine the impact on the Middle East, let alone the rest of the world, of this attitude? Of course he’s thought it through. He’s read and decided to agree with the label on the Kool-Aid bottle. The label says “It ain’t my fault. It’s their fault. It ain’t the Preznit’s fault. It ain’t America’s fault. Except for the god-damned libruhls. And the French. Probably Syria, too, and Iran and North Korea. Just not me, or any of the people I self-identify with.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/497 "2004-11-10T13:43:28Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > BTW, that latter quote should have said “anonymous” as opposed to The Bard. It’s misattributed to him for some time – but no one, AFAIK, has been able to determine source with any degree of veracity. > > The sentiments expressed therein however, stand stronger than ever. As I recall, **december** was banned for misattributing a quote (among other things). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/498 "2004-11-10T14:02:20Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > elucidator: > > Not me. I didn’t trust Bush when they said Saddam had WMDs. I was trusting Kerry and Clinton when they said it. > > I notice you always seem to forget about that complexity. It’s why I think you’re so… special. And you’re so…special because you keep forgetting that Clinton didn’t start a war over it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/499 "2004-11-10T14:57:17Z")
I find this a bit confusing. You trusted Kerry? The same Kerry that you excoriated on these Boards as a liar and a traitor? Is that the Kerry you are talking about? One might be confused at such an extraordinary admission. Is it your usual practice to place your trust in men you have determined are liars and traitors? Did you get that from the Freepers, your source and font for all that is wise and true? “Kerry is telling the truth, we should all lend an ear to his wise counsel.”? How very odd. I ran your post through Babelfish, on the Weaselspeak to English translation. I regret the meltdown that caused, I only hope the site has recovered. But before it shrunk into a singularity, I got these shards… “My conscience has begun to trouble me, I suspect that my political opponents have a point, and that I have supported a policy that makes wormfood out of our best and brightest, for no good reason and no worthy goal. But rather than accept my own share of responsibility, I think I’ll try and blame someone else…” No, you didn’t trust Kerry, nor did you trust Clinton. There’s thousands of people on this Board, and the number you actually fooled with that transparent bullshit could fit in your kitchen cupboard. Being you, **Scylla**. Just you. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850/500 "2004-11-10T15:07:12Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Of course he’s thought it through. He’s read and decided to agree with the label on the Kool-Aid bottle. The label says “It ain’t my fault. It’s their fault. It ain’t the Preznit’s fault. It ain’t America’s fault. Except for the god-damned libruhls. And the French. Probably **Syria, too, and Iran and North Korea.** Just not me, or any of the people I self-identify with.” Who the fuck gave you the secret plan? :eek: How’s that Howard deal working out for you, by the way. You Aussie fascists. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-told-you-so/272850.md?page=26)