# I, Tonya (movie) and her guilt/innocence **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 13, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415 "2017-12-13T18:05:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/41 "2018-01-04T05:19:18Z")
My wife and I watched a lot of ice skating back then, and it wasn’t so much a class issue as two different styles of ice skating - Tonya was far more athletic, while Nancy was more artistic - and the judges preferred the latter. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/42 "2018-01-04T06:26:16Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > My wife and I watched a lot of ice skating back then, and it wasn’t so much a class issue as two different styles of ice skating - Tonya was far more athletic, while Nancy was more artistic - and the judges preferred the latter. That was certainly part of it, too. Particularly the Eastern European judges valued more balletic, classical expression (even to the point where you’d nearly never see a Russian skater performing to anything other than classical music). I remember Surya Bonaly, the French skater from that era, who was an incredible athlete (and known for landing backflips and attempting other difficult jumps), but, as I remember it, wasn’t known for being as artistic as some of her peers, and never medaled in the Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/43 "2018-01-04T15:11:31Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > My wife and I watched a lot of ice skating back then, and it wasn’t so much a class issue as two different styles of ice skating - Tonya was far more athletic, while Nancy was more artistic - and the judges preferred the latter. I’m sure this was true for the judges, commentators, and probably people who know a decent amount about figure skating. But for the public at large, the story I remember the media pushing was more about class and personality differences than athleticism. Or at least, that’s the story that resonated with me as a non-skating fan. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/44 "2018-01-04T15:42:42Z")
Don’t forget that Nancy only silvered in 94. It wasn’t because of her knee, it was because she was a dull skater. She had a classic artistic style, clean skating, but nothing all that special. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/45 "2018-01-04T15:46:10Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > And before indulging in any cockamamie crackpot boneheaded peabrained so-off-base-it’s-on-a-football-field “madonna-whore” BS, maybe talk to some people who actually _know_ Kerrigan and see if there’s any validity to this assessment. I read some testimonials on the old [CNNSI.com](http://CNNSI.com) boards, and the consensus was that she always had an attitude and the idea that she was this pristine innocent angel was absurd. Be honest, get that out in the open, and maybe ripping on Mickey Mouse in what’s supposed to be her glorious victory lap won’t sting nearly so much, eh? What does Nancy Kerrigan’s personality have to do with Tonya Harding’s guilt or innocence? Does it really matter if Kerrigan was a saint or an asshole? If someone steals a car, nobody says “Sure, but the car’s owner is a dick.” As to Harding, it strikes me as being amazingly unlikely she was not in on it. The problem with the theory that she did not know, or only vaguely knew, it that such a scenario requires that Jeff Gillooly, her ex husband, would o his own accord plan the attack and go to the trouble of seeing it through. Gillooly was and is a criminal idiot, and it strikes me as being very difficult to believe that he would have done any of this without Harding suggesting it. Unless she made at least vague promises to him, why would he scheme to engage in a conspiracy to do something that might make his EX wife rich, assuming the sequence of events that Kerrigan defeated her at the Olympics? Does it strike anyone as being even one hundredth as likely as the much likelier scenario that she was in on it? ---
**Author:** ![hopesperson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@hopesperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hopesperson)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/46 "2018-01-04T16:27:21Z")
For those who are interested, ESPN’s very good documentary series “30 for 30” had a fascinating episode on the Kerrigan/Harding affair. Here is the link: [http://www.espn.com/30for30/film?page=thepriceofgold](http://www.espn.com/30for30/film?page=thepriceofgold) Not many sympathetic figures in the affair, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/47 "2018-01-04T16:30:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As to Harding, it strikes me as being amazingly unlikely she was not in on it. The problem with the theory that she did not know, or only vaguely knew, it that such a scenario requires that Jeff Gillooly, her ex husband, would o his own accord plan the attack and go to the trouble of seeing it through. Gillooly was and is a criminal idiot, and it strikes me as being very difficult to believe that he would have done any of this without Harding suggesting it. Unless she made at least vague promises to him, why would he scheme to engage in a conspiracy to do something that might make his EX wife rich, assuming the sequence of events that Kerrigan defeated her at the Olympics? Does it strike anyone as being even one hundredth as likely as the much likelier scenario that she was in on it? In the movie, Gillooly specifically hired Shawn what’s-his-face but not to attack Kerrigan physically, only to send her threatening letters; Harding was made aware of that much at some point before the attack (I don’t recall a scene where she’s told so much as I recall a scene or two where she indicates she knew there were supposed to be threatening letters mailed). The movie depicts Shawn as going off the rails on his own with the physical assault scenario with neither Gillooly’s nor Harding’s awareness or consent. If Shawn was 1/1000th as depicted, and the movie _appeared_ to be showing some real-life footage backing that up (but it could have been mock), this is quite believable. Also in the movie was the notion that Shawn had faked a death threat against Harding and that this was what prompted them to plan the death threat letters against Kerrigan, as retaliation. (Although why they’d assume Kerrigan was the source of them was not explained). ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/48 "2018-01-04T16:32:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > As to Harding, it strikes me as being amazingly unlikely she was not in on it. The problem with the theory that she did not know, or only vaguely knew, it that such a scenario requires that Jeff Gillooly, her ex husband, would o his own accord plan the attack and go to the trouble of seeing it through. Gillooly was and is a criminal idiot, and it strikes me as being very difficult to believe that he would have done any of this without Harding suggesting it. Unless she made at least vague promises to him, why would he scheme to engage in a conspiracy to do something that might make his EX wife rich, assuming the sequence of events that Kerrigan defeated her at the Olympics? Does it strike anyone as being even one hundredth as likely as the much likelier scenario that she was in on it? I think it more likely that she was **not** in on it. She certainly knew something was up (she’s admitted as much), but I have no trouble believing that she thought maybe they were going to send her threatening notes, and she was sufficiently cowed by Gillooly that she didn’t argue with him. Look at the motivations. For Tonya, her motivation would have been to remove a potential competitor for one of the three U.S. spots and a competitor at the Olympics themselves. Granted, that’s a strong motivation. But it doesn’t fit what we know about her. She was a fierce competitor and fearless on the ice. She was cocky. The idea that she thought she needed this help to make the Olympics doesn’t match her personality. She had the spotlight, there was no need to bring more attention to herself. Gillooly, on the other hand, was a nobody, defined only by his relation to his famous wife/ex. As an abusive husband, I’m sure it ate at him to be subjugated to her like that. Here was a way for him to be involved, and is his mind, responsible for her success. She didn’t need him injecting himself in her competition, but he certainly needed it for his own sense of self-importance. Then there’s Eckhardt, who was a complete loon. Normal rules of rational behavior don’t apply to him. Watch his [interview with Diane Sawyer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV8gyTEKG3A) where he talks about being a counter-terrorism expert with hit men. He bragged to others about his plan to launch a business of bodyguards for skaters and how this attack would help grow that. I don’t know if Gillooly or Eckhardt was the “mastermind”, but I think they both had much stronger motivations for the attack than Tonya. But obviously, I have no idea, so this is just a different viewpoint, not an argument against yours. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/49 "2018-01-09T00:40:07Z")
Harding got a warm response at the Golden Globes. Perhaps she’ll get an invite to Dancing With the Stars? She’ll never be allowed back into skating. Perhaps she can at least move past be reviled by so many. Figure skaters traditionally do well on DWTS and are fun to watch. They learn dance steps quickly. I don’t know if it will happen. She may prefer a low key life now. > **[Tonya Harding comeback drops jaws at Golden Globes](https://pagesix.com/2018/01/08/tonya-harding-comeback-drops-jaws-at-golden-globes/?_ga=2.160934010.612066587.1515437916-amp-DI99_w6Q8PVmnryH0dDDEsTSB0Bm8aFLQKfu6L3WQDgxXqvPo-GIqduwJ8skQ_L5)** > > This may be the craziest comeback story ever. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/50 "2018-01-09T00:47:42Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > You know what I find ironic about all of this? > > Supposedly, the main reason this whole thing happened in the first place is, Tonya and Jeff were pissed off that Nancy was going to get all of the publicity, stardom, and endorsement deals that go with being an Olympic gold medalist. However, pretty much the only two female figure skaters that were skating after 1988 that most people can name - Tonya Harding and Michelle Kwan - never won an Olympic title. (Okay, you can make a case for Tara Lipinski, but that’s only because of her commentating for NBC.) Oksana Baiul? Sarah Hughes? Shizuka Arakawa? Kim Yu-Na? Adelina Sotnikova? Who? Kristi Yamaguchi. ---
**Author:** ![AppallingGael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9bd4f/32.png) [@AppallingGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AppallingGael)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/51 "2018-01-10T08:39:46Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Harding got a warm response at the Golden Globes. Perhaps she’ll get an invite to Dancing With the Stars? Has anyone ever won on Celebrity Boxing and DWTS? ---
**Author:** ![flip-68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@flip-68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flip-68)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/52 "2018-01-10T16:42:33Z")
interesting interview with Tonya [http://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/more-sports/tonya-harding-would-like-her-apology-now/ar-BBIbTV4?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=ientp](http://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/more-sports/tonya-harding-would-like-her-apology-now/ar-BBIbTV4?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=ientp) ---
**Author:** ![chulio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e5b9ba/32.png) [@chulio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chulio)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/53 "2018-01-12T23:40:23Z")
> [@](#): > > If she hadn’t run into that idiot Jeff, if she’s escaped her mother and gotten into a good, supportive relationship, she would have at least one gold medal And if my Mom would have exited the left door instead of the tight door on HWY 41 20 years ago she would have gotten hit by that bus and I would not be here ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/54 "2018-01-13T02:42:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Kristi Yamaguchi. Indeed, she’s still a significant celebrity in the Bay Area. I see her at charity events regularly. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/55 "2018-01-13T02:46:31Z")
The U.S. Figure Skating Championships were happening in San Jose this past weekend, almost the same time as the Golden Globes. My family had tickets to all the finals. Nancy Kerrigan was there signing autographs and having photos taken. I don’t think anybody dared to ask her about Tonya. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/56 "2018-01-13T03:03:29Z")
The New York Times ran an [interview](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/10/movies/tonya-harding-i-tonya-nancy-kerrigan-scandal.html) with her. It addresses some questions raised here: **Guilt** : > [@](#): > > The prosecution believed that she was much more involved than what the plea bargain encompassed, but they accepted the plea since it included a felony charge. She was sentenced to three years of supervised probation, 500 hours of community service, a $100,000 state fine, and was tasked with setting up a $50,000 fund to benefit the Special Olympics, reimbursing the Multnomah County prosecutor’s office $10,000 in costs, undergoing a psychiatric examination and participating in any court-ordered treatment. > [@](#): > > Her side of the story is not about guilt or innocence — the discussion over guilt and innocence ended right about the time she completed her community service, as far as she’s concerned — but about the finer points of being Tonya Harding: respect, mitigating circumstances, how we treat people and what we expect from them in the first place. **Life since the incident:** > [@](#): > > She’d worked as a welder, a painter at a metal fabrication company, a hardware sales clerk at Sears, where every day some guy would ask if there was a man who could help him, and every day she’d school that guy on how much more she knows about tools than just about anyone. She faced Paula Jones in a celebrity boxing bout in 2002, and started an unremarkable boxing career in earnest in 2003. She’s married now, has a son, does a lot of hunting, the article says. **Movie accuracy** : Except for a couple of minor details–she thinks the movie implies she made the rabbits she hunted into a coat, when she in fact bought her fur coats; she doesn’t swear as much as the movie portrays–it’s very accurate, she said. **On femininity** : > [@](#): > > “I hated the word ‘feminine,’” she said. “It reminded me of a tampon or a panty liner.” ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/57 "2018-01-18T04:04:07Z")
Rickjay - See, see, I never claimed that any goddam thing was justified. My point was that the media imposed some ridiculous binary mindset to the whole debacle, one that should’ve made anyone with an IQ higher than a Wonderlic score go “Oh, come on!”…and **no one** challenged it. Ever. As for your, um, interesting analysis (which, in the continued absence of a smoking gun, I’ll unfortunately have to deem not worth my energy to pick apart), you seem to be under the impression that it’s impossible for anyone to act completely irrationally, or make a decision that in hindsight turns to be utterly moronic, or to act like a royal, colossal, horrible jerk for absolutely no goddam good reason. And I have to take exception to that, because I have witnessed that exact behavior **my entire freaking life**. And you know what? Being the poor, helpless boy who _never_ started it, _never_ caused trouble, _never_ threw the first punch, _never_ poured fuel on the fire, yet become an Acceptable Target for EVERY jerk and scumbag and piece of gutter trash and NEVER be able to get justice because, oh, they couldn’t _possibly_ be sociopaths, you _must_ have done something to provoke them…I’m not much inclined to mitigate Gilooly’s part in this, which it seemed like the entire goddam rest of the country did. But even that wasn’t the worst it. The worst part was the attitude that it’s perfect fine to dump on certain people if they fail to live up to our expectations and then dump them in the trash when it’s over. The stuff I read about the abuse Harding had to endure growing up was chilling. Where were the child protection agencies that were supposed to prevent this? Where were her friends and other family? Why didn’t _anyone_ want to lend her a hand when she needed it, or make any attempt to rehabilitate her once she was back from the Olympics? What the hell happened to empathy in this rotten country, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2018, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415/58 "2018-10-10T04:07:09Z")
Bumped. Just saw the movie and really enjoyed it. A great black comedy. Allison Janney earned her Oscar as the Stage Mom From Hell! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-tonya-movie-and-her-guilt-innocence/804415.md?page=2)