# I unhappily report that I am right about obesity and diet (Very long) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543 "2011-02-16T04:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/321 "2011-03-08T19:50:13Z")
Hey, man. Back off of **Stoid**. She read a BOOK. Well, she read PART OF A BOOK. She _knows things_, dude. Stop harshing her buzz. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/322 "2011-03-08T20:16:43Z")
> [@Submerged](#): > > Also, isn’t it possible that “most people” are working harder than you to obtain and maintain a healthy weight? Isn’t that a more logical explanation than that the laws of thermogenics magically just don’t apply in your case? So I decided to look up thermogenics. The first hit was wikipedia which stated: > [@](#): > > Thermogenic means tending to produce heat and is commonly applied to drugs which increase heat through metabolic stimulation The rest of the the google results were diet supplements. :dubious: Then I googled “laws of thermodynamics” and found that all of the results were for gyms, bodybuilding sites, and diet supplements. :rolleyes: So you want to explain to me how “laws of thermodynamics” is in any way scientifically accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/323 "2011-03-08T20:16:58Z")
> [@Submerged](#): > > Why is a 60 year old skinnny guy so obsessed with his weight that he weighs himself **every day** …in front of other people? Because he’s desperately trying to gain (no different than a lot of other people who weigh every day) Also, our scale is in a common area, because we were arguing about it’s accuracy one day and making little experiments with items whose weights we knew. Just never moved it… ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/324 "2011-03-08T20:24:32Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > Then I googled “laws of thermodynamics” and found that all of the results were for gyms, bodybuilding sites, and diet supplements. :rolleyes: That is not the result I get when I google laws of thermodynamics or “laws of thermodynamics” in quotation marks. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/325 "2011-03-08T20:26:53Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Hey, man. Back off of **Stoid**. She read a BOOK. Well, she read PART OF A BOOK. She _knows things_, dude. Stop harshing her buzz. Educate yourselves! ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/326 "2011-03-08T20:33:54Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > Then I googled “laws of thermodynamics” and found that all of the results were for gyms, bodybuilding sites, and diet supplements. :rolleyes: You must have downloaded the new beta of Google. I don’t have that particular version yet. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/327 "2011-03-08T20:36:36Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > You must have downloaded the new beta of Google. I don’t have that particular version yet. I have the Google Beta installed and I didn’t get a bunch of gym or pill advertisements either. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/328 "2011-03-08T20:38:54Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I have the Google Beta installed and I didn’t get a bunch of gym or pill advertisements either. Gotta be in Google Gamma, then… ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/329 "2011-03-08T20:39:26Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I call bullshit on this. You show up in A LOT of weight/appearance threads, have mentioned hanging out on low-carb message boards, admit to having issues regarding your attractiveness, and generally seem to put a lot of thought into this for a 25 year old who claims to be naturally slim. I suspect there is more going on that you are admitting here, but I hope that you are admitting it to yourself. If you are or have been anorexic, your weight is not the normal result of a fast metabolism, and it won’t help you to rationalize that it is. It’s a tricky disease, and one that does not go away entirely. if you see it coming up, you have to recognize that, put it into words, and face it straight on using whatever resources you’ve got. I certainly can’t prove you over the internet that I don’t have anorexia nervosa and that I eat a large amount of calories for someone my weight. I can’t even prove it to people I know in the real world - they see me eat a lot sometimes, but for all they know I throw it back up on my next trip to the bathroom. I came to terms a long time ago with people assuming that I have an eating disorder based entirely on how much I weigh, it’s pointless to argue over the issue. If you think I’m a liar (or a deluded anorexic)… oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/330 "2011-03-08T20:46:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > This. Anorexia is fundamentally about lying. “Oh, I just ate.” “I’m meeting someone for dinner after this.” “Sorry, my stomach is feeling funny, I’ll stick to water.” That’s all you do all day, to everyone. You learn how to throw food away when nobody is looking, how to pick out low-calorie bits from your meals so it looks like you are eating, how to take a few bits and leave the rest. All true. For lots of anorexics a lot of the time. Leading one to question the fundamental truthfulness of anyone suffering from anorexia. Yet, I live in a world among people carefully selected for exactly this trait: honesty. Genuineness. Sincerity. The mother and father of this child are my closest friends for nearly my entire life, and I know their children and how they were raised. So I can tell you that this child is inherently very honest because she learned early what an effective way it is to live. Her therapist and nutritionist both find her unusually truthful and have made that point to her mother. Her family intervened extremely early in the process and so far there has been no hint of dishonesty- at most, refusal to state what she doesn’t want to (to her mother, where there’s more conflict, of course). But she’s never been caught in a lie or deceptive act yet. So other people may think and act differently, but since honesty is the only thing that’s been seen so far, it would be grossly unfair and disrespectful, as well as unhelpful, to simply assume that this girl lies because other people lie. In fact, it would be grotesque. YMMV. > [@rhubarbarin](#): > > Google ‘overfeeding study’ for any number. > > Clearly you are not familiar with the theory of adaptive thermogenesis. Many studies have indicated that body weight can remain stable, or fluctuate much less than expected, when caloric intake is increased or decreased (even vastly). People are not mathematical sums who will all lose/gain x lbs within x weeks by reducing/increasing calories by x daily. Blah blah thermodynamics, I know, but we are not closed systems. Taubes talks about this at length. In fact, chapters 6&7 are titled “Thermodynamics For Dummies” parts 1 and 2. The second half of the book is called “Adiposity 101” and explains what he calls “the laws of adiposity”, giving an in-depth explanation of how this all works, and does not work, to make some of us fat while others remain lean, and how it is not a starightforward matter of X calories consumed vs. expended, and how in fact, that’s actually a completely illogical way to view it, in light of what we know about how the body actually works. > [@](#): > > It is astounding how much bad science, and so bad advice, and a growing obesity problem, has been the result of the experts failure to understand this one simple fact. The very notion that we get fat because we consume more calories than we expend would not exist without the misapplied belief that the laws of thermodynamics make it true. When the experts write that "obesity is a disorder of energy balance:- it is shorthand for saying that the laws of thermodynamics dictate this to be true. And yet they don’t. and then several pages go on to explain this. It’s from the first of the two chapters on TD. The second chapter addresses the fundamental flaw in treating the two parts of the energy equation as having no effect on each other and talks about research done in 2007 on animals: > [@](#): > > If we restrict the amount of food an animal can eat, not only does it get hungry, but it actually expends less energy. _ **Its metabolic rate slows down.** _ Its cells burn less energy, because they have less energy to burn. Then, in the Laws of adiposity he says: > [@](#): > > What do these laws and this research hav eto say about people who are habitually lean? Researchers have also created animal models of leanness-animals whose genes have been manipulated so they are leaner than they’d otherwise be. **These animals will remain lean even when the researchers force them to consumer more calories than they prefer-by infusing nutrients through a tube into their guts for instance, pumping in calories directly**. Good ol’ science. Love that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/331 "2011-03-08T20:50:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > That is not the result I get when I google laws of thermodynamics or “laws of thermodynamics” in quotation marks. Sorry, I meant “laws of thermogenics” which is what Submerged said. Try that one and see what you get. Nor do I think you reduce a biological system down to the laws of physics. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/332 "2011-03-08T21:11:46Z")
> [@Submerged](#): > > Curious, how much weight have you lost since you stopped keeping track of how much you eat? I didn’t say I wasn’t keeping track of how much I eat, I said I wasn’t counting calories anymore. I’m shifting to a low carb eating plan. I will be keeping y’all updated on my progress. > [@Submerged](#): > > And while of course it’s true that no two people have the exact same metabolism, the differences are very VERY minor. Your scenario where one person eats twice as much as another yet does not gain weight is simply preposterous. Incorrect. See previous. > [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#): > > It may SOUND preposterous; however, my room mate (60 year old male) is about 5’4" and weighs around 143. This guy eats probably three times the calories I do and absolutely has trouble keeping weight on. I see him every day and see him get on the scale every day. He’ll have bacon, eggs and a bagel; soup and sandwich for lunch; maybe half of or a whole pizza for supper. He remains the same weight or goes down a couple of pounds quite frequently. Completely baffling. I’ve known that guy. He drives me crazy. I used to live with him. 🙂 > [@Submerged](#): > > Also, isn’t it possible that “most people” are working harder than you to obtain and maintain a healthy weight? Isn’t that a more logical explanation than that the laws of thermogenics magically just don’t apply in your case? What “Law of Thermogenics” would that be, exactly? With all due respect, the fact that you don’t apparently really have the most fundamental understanding of what it is is you think you’re talking about, as evidence by the fact you don’t even know what its actually called, undermines your arguments and assertions about what is and is not preposterous entirely. > [@Zyada](#): > > So I decided to look up thermogenics. The first hit was wikipedia which stated: > The rest of the the google results were diet supplements. :dubious: > > Then I googled “laws of thermodynamics” and found that all of the results were for gyms, bodybuilding sites, and diet supplements. :rolleyes: > > So you want to explain to me how “laws of thermodynamics” is in any way scientifically accurate? See my prior post. FYI, there are three laws of thermodynamics, but it is only the first one that is the one people refer to in this context. It says that energy is neither created or destroyed but can only change from one form to another. In other words, if something gets bigger or smaller, more or less energy has to enter it than leave it. Taubes: > [@](#): > > The experts who say that we get fat because we overeat or we get fat as a result of overeating are making the kind of mistake that would (or should) earn a failing grade in high school science class. They are taking **a law of nature that says absolutely nothing about why we get fat** and a phenomenon that has to happen if we do get fat-overeating-and assume these say all that needs to be said. > … > Because one thing we should know for sure is that **the laws of thermodynamics** , true as they are, **tell us nothing about why we get fat** or why we take in more calories than we expend **while its happening.** And if anyone wants to understand this…read the book! If it could be summarized in a post, a book wouldn’t have been necessary to begin with… sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/333 "2011-03-08T21:13:50Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > Sorry, I meant “laws of thermogenics” which is what Submerged said. Try that one and see what you get. > > Nor do I think you reduce a biological system down to the laws of physics. And you were both incorrect, reflecting how both of you don’t actually understand at all what you think you understand. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/334 "2011-03-08T21:14:43Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > Sorry, I meant “laws of thermogenics” which is what Submerged said. Try that one and see what you get. > > Nor do I think you reduce a biological system down to the laws of physics. So, what else is immune from the laws of physics, just so we’re clear? Here’s what we absolutely know: Food contains energy. If you consume food, you are either going to get the energy from the food or not. If you _get_ the energy from the food, you either have to store it or burn it. If you _don’t_ get the energy from the food, you need to excrete it. It is not possible for the energy to be consumed and then not excreted, not burned, **and** not stored. It’s got to be one of the three. Any anecdote that doesn’t account for one of the three is suspect, at best. Just as anecdotes that say that someone knows someone who can fly or walk through walls or make himself invisible. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/335 "2011-03-08T21:19:21Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Food contains energy. If you consume food, you are either going to get the energy from the food or not. If you _get_ the energy from the food, you either have to store it or burn it. If you _don’t_ get the energy from the food, you need to excrete it. It is not possible for the energy to be consumed and then not excreted, not burned, **and** not stored. It’s got to be one of the three. Yes. If a person eats 100 calories worth of food, then they are going to burn it as energy, store it as fat/convert it to tissue, or excrete it as waste. And nothing about that actually explains anything at all about why Person A burns it, Person B turns it into fat, and Person C poops it. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/336 "2011-03-08T21:37:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, what else is immune from the laws of physics, just so we’re clear? You canna change the laws of physics, Captain! ---
**Author:** ![Submerged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Submerged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Submerged)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/337 "2011-03-08T21:37:49Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > Sorry, I meant “laws of thermogenics” which is what Submerged said. Try that one and see what you get. > > Nor do I think you reduce a biological system down to the laws of physics. Obviously, I meant “thermodynamics”. Missed the edit window by 10 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/338 "2011-03-08T21:41:18Z")
> [@Submerged](#): > > Obviously, I meant “thermodynamics”. Missed the edit window by 10 seconds. And it still makes no difference, because the first law of thermodynamics only tells us that our food becomes energy, tissue or poop. It doesn’t tell us why it becomes which one. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/339 "2011-03-08T21:55:54Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > You canna change the laws of physics, Captain! Oh, we’ll find out how when we get to the end of the thread! ---
**Author:** ![Submerged](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Submerged](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Submerged)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/340 "2011-03-08T22:00:12Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And it still makes no difference, because the first law of thermodynamics only tells us that our food becomes energy, tissue or poop. It doesn’t tell us why it becomes which one. It doesn’t matter. If someone is pooping out their food instead of digesting it, they have some sort of disorder or disease. Are you claiming your anorexic friend has a some kind of digestive disease now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=18)