# I unhappily report that I am right about obesity and diet (Very long) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543 "2011-02-16T04:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/561 "2011-03-11T05:35:45Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > You guys are cracking me up. What is the dog you have in this hunt, anyway? Have you stopped to think about it? Are you personal trainers and diet coaches who need to crush any idea that threatens your livelihood? Yes we are. And the doctors are colluding with the big pharma to prevent the wholesome cures of herbal remedies and homeopathy from being used by the public. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/562 "2011-03-11T06:43:22Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > Yes we are. And the doctors are colluding with the big pharma to prevent the wholesome cures of herbal remedies and homeopathy from being used by the public. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/563 "2011-03-11T07:55:13Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > But until the last 30 years of (Fat is bad! Eat more “heart healthy” carbs! Avoid meat! Stock up on cereal and grain! Fat? Well, for god’s sake don’t eat fat or meat! Just keep going with the carbs and someday it will work!" it wasn’t aggravated so frequently. Our consumption of carbohydrates, both good (whole grains, high fiber) and bad (soda soda soda…) has soared. Then, when our regulatory mechanism has collapsed under the onslaught and take to turning everything into fat, the “cure” we’re handed is…more of the same thing that got us in this fix, until we are the fattest nation on earth. Americans may have been getting the advice to avoid meat and fat for 30 years, but many of them sure as hell aren’t following it. Calorie consumption overall has increased, physical labour has decreased, and driving absolutely everywhere has taken over. Look at the popularity of McDonalds and KFC and Burger King - sure they serve carbs, but they serve a whole lot of fatty meat too. Do you really think most Americans got fat on a reasonable volume of cereal and grain? I do see that soda and HFCS has played a part in the obesity epidemic, but you could easily say that that’s because they add so many calories to a persons daily intake (and calories you drink don’t fill you up so much). I don’t see how you can so definitively say that carbs are to blame when so many other facets of daily life have shifted and overall calorie consumption has also increased. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/564 "2011-03-11T08:23:13Z")
Incidentally, Stoid, what do you make of people who have lost weight successfully by simply counting calories? > [@Stoid](#): > > You guys are cracking me up. What is the dog you have in this hunt, anyway? Have you stopped to think about it? So when you refute a theory (calories in vs. calories out) it’s because you ‘genuinely cherish facts and truth and reality’, but when others refute a theory (carbs make you fat, you can eat all the other calories you want) they must have an sinister alternate motive? Maybe we’re just looking to fight ignorance too. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/565 "2011-03-11T09:25:23Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Incidentally, Stoid, what do you make of people who have lost weight successfully by simply counting calories? I think they can handle a lot of discomfort, and hat’s off. > [@](#): > > When others refute a theory (carbs make you fat, you can eat all the other calories you want) they must have an sinister alternate motive? Maybe we’re just looking to fight ignorance too. Was someone refuting a theory? Where was I? Because I was responding to someone’s very mysterious need to _insist_ - no, _declare_, in a fashion suggesting he has my medical chart in front of him containing a comprehensive analysis of my entire body chemistry when for all he knows I’m a skinny 15 year old girl munching brownies while I mess with everyone’s head - that the weight I have lost was water. Why in the world he was so invested is a mystery I have not solved - I wondered if he (or others who’ve behaved similarly) has paused to ask himself what in the world is really driving him. Whatever the answer, the very fact that he _does_ feel that need so strongly is funny. Hence my remark. Whenever someone shows up to refute the theory of carb restriction with something _other_ than sneers, unsupported declarations of absolute truth or miscellaneous mockery…I’m completely ready to take in the information and sources they provide and consider it carefully. I believe I have followed every link that anyone has provided to anything, I always do, although I confess off the top of my head I can’t recall any “refuting” links apart from Dio’s to a nine-year old rebuttal of Taubes’ original ten-year-old article, and since that article is obsolete in light of Taubes’ 2007 and 2011 books, I confess I didn’t give it too much consideration. Pretty much all the other links I can remember offhand have been provided by people who, to one degree or another, _agree_ with carb restriction, and frankly, as you might imagine, the effect of that is to reinforce my faith that Taubes is just as good a journalist and reporter as his very impressive resume suggests, and that he has accurately brought out the facts and the analysis and yes…high carbohydrates are in fact the #1 reason so many of us are fat, and finding our own path to reversing that will be the answer to undoing it. But if that changes I’ll be right here. Because yes, I do like truth, data, facts… big fan. Always have been, always will be. G’night. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/566 "2011-03-11T11:48:10Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Our consumption of carbohydrates, both good … and bad … has soared. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/567 "2011-03-11T12:10:29Z")
I asked this question in my other thread, but does anyone know how low-carbers avoid metabolic ketoacidosis, if they’re constantly beta-oxidizing fats and producing ketone bodies? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/568 "2011-03-11T13:15:14Z")
Stoid, I wish you luck. I’m not sure I understand your objection to counting calories but I accept that not all calories are the same. For me, I ate less, exercised more, added a lot more vegetables to my diet and lost 60 lbs in the space of around 7 months. I’ve kept it all off for almost a year and I’m running my first marathon next month. Changing my diet to less food hasn’t really been a major problem for me, although I slip off the wagon from time to time and splurge. Counting calories has worked fine for me, I didn’t need major changes in diet, just portion size, making some smarter choices, and getting a lot of exercise. I’m in better shape than when I left college 20+ years ago and loving it. I hope you have a similar success story no matter how you get there. IMO, it’s critical that whatever you do, it be something you can sustain and gives you the nutrition that you need. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/569 "2011-03-11T13:46:35Z")
[Ketosis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis) is not [ketoacidosis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketoacidosis). You can live in a state of ketosis more or less permanently. There are some epileptics who are on a strict ketogenic diet to prevent seizures, and as I pointed out in a previous post, there are some cellular repair mechanisms that only are activated in ketosis. Ketone bodies also seem to have some neuroprotective function. Unless you have either severe insulin resistance, or an inability to produce insulin, you won’t go into uncontrolled ketosis. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/570 "2011-03-11T14:04:26Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > Cite? Here’s a quote pulled from a correlational study titled: \*Increased consumption of refined carbohydrates and the epidemic of type 2 diabetes in the United States: an ecologic assessment \* > [@](#): > > Until 1980, the total energy intake remained relatively constant. Between 1980 and 1997, however, total energy intake increased by \> 500 kcal/d. This increase was due primarily to increases in dietary carbohydrate. Specifically, 428 kcal (nearly 80% of the increase in total energy) came from carbohydrates, 64 kcal (12% of the increase in total energy) came from protein, and only 45 kcal (8% of the increase in total energy) came from fat. This represents a relative increase in consumption of dietary carbohydrates from 48% to 54% of total energy intake over a 20-y period and a relative decrease in dietary fat from 41% to 37% of total energy intake. During the same period, the prevalence of type 2 diabetes increased by 47% and the prevalence of obesity increased by 80%, indicating a significant positive correlation between the percentage of energy from refined carbohydrates and the prevalence of type 2 diabetes and obesity. > > The total per capita use of caloric sweeteners increased by 86% between 1909 and 1997, and the type of sweeteners used also changed dramatically. Corn syrup sweeteners, which were almost nonexistent at the beginning of the century, now comprise \> 20% of the total daily carbohydrate intake and 10% of the daily total energy intake, which represents an increase of \> 2100%. These sweeteners have surpassed sucrose as the leading sweetener in the US food industry and account for much of the rebound increase in carbohydrate consumption after the mid-1960s, largely replacing the losses due to whole grains (Figure 2). There was a significant correlation between the percentage of carbohydrate from corn syrup and the prevalence of type 2 diabetes. > [http://www.ajcn.org/content/79/5/774.full](http://www.ajcn.org/content/79/5/774.full) They also found that when total calories were accounted for, neither fat nor protein intake was positively correlated with increased risk of diabetes, but carbohydrate intake was. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/571 "2011-03-11T14:48:19Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I think animal domestication pre-dates plant, especially grain, vs. vegetables. And if you have ever seen the Masai or the Mongols squirting milk directly from the udders of goats and cows, you can see how dairy probably came first. You are flat out wrong. Animal domestication is only estimated to be around 12,000 years old. We’ve found evidence for use of grains as early as [60,000 years ago](http://ancientfoods.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/archaeologist-unearths-earliest-evidence-of-modern-humans-using-wild-grains-and-tubers/) and [100,000 years ago](http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/174441.php). I imagine more discoveries will push it back even further. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/572 "2011-03-11T15:14:42Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I think they can handle a lot of discomfort, and hat’s off. But that’s not even possible under the theory that you have been operating with this whole time. You’ve been saying “calories don’t count and counting calories will not help you lose weight”. It’s what Taubes says. But it works for many people, even people in studies cited by his own book! This whole argument is not about “what’s least uncomfortable” or “what’s the most fun diet to go on”, it’s about what works. And low-carb and low-calorie both work, in fact low-carb is calorie restrictive by its very nature. > [@](#): > > Was someone refuting a theory? Where was I? Yes, you see the title of this thread? The one about you being right about obesity and diet? There are two theories here that are trying to be debunked: you’re trying to debunk the idea that calories matter when trying to lose weight, and we’re trying to tell you that they absolutely do matter depending on the composition of the food, which you seem to agree on. > [@](#): > > Whenever someone shows up to refute the theory of carb restriction with something _other_ than sneers, unsupported declarations of absolute truth or miscellaneous mockery…I’m completely ready to take in the information and sources they provide and consider it carefully. I believe I have followed every link that anyone has provided to anything, I always do, although I confess off the top of my head I can’t recall any “refuting” links apart from Dio’s to a nine-year old rebuttal of Taubes’ original ten-year-old article, and since that article is obsolete in light of Taubes’ 2007 and 2011 books, I confess I didn’t give it too much consideration. Again, focusing on this book like a laser beam is part of your problem. Read more about low-carb. You are not presenting low-carb as it has been tested to work though. You’re reading refutations of Taubes like it’s the refutation of all low-carb literature, and it isn’t. Like I said earlier, you will find a lot of low-carb proponents out there. But we acknowledge that calories do count, and that low-carb is calorie restrictive without as much pain as just going low calorie. You’ll find it difficult to lose weight and keep it off if you’re constantly seeking the path of least resistance. It’s not fun, it’s not getting to eat tons and tons of great delicious food all the time, and it is finding ways to work out even if it’s “outside of your maximum personal comfort zone”. > [@](#): > > Pretty much all the other links I can remember offhand have been provided by people who, to one degree or another, _agree_ with carb restriction, and frankly, as you might imagine, the effect of that is to reinforce my faith that Taubes is just as good a journalist and reporter as his very impressive resume suggests, and that he has accurately brought out the facts and the analysis and yes…high carbohydrates are in fact the #1 reason so many of us are fat, and finding our own path to reversing that will be the answer to undoing it. Then read actual scientists. Taubes is not a messiah and frankly he’s a pretty shitty writer. Low-carb is not being debated here. “Calories don’t matter” is. > [@](#): > > But if that changes I’ll be right here. Because yes, I do like truth, data, facts… big fan. Always have been, always will be. You lose the right to say this when you only read the stuff you want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/573 "2011-03-11T15:21:50Z")
> [@Sleel](#): > > [Ketosis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis) is not [ketoacidosis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketoacidosis). You can live in a state of ketosis more or less permanently. There are some epileptics who are on a strict ketogenic diet to prevent seizures, and as I pointed out in a previous post, there are some cellular repair mechanisms that only are activated in ketosis. Ketone bodies also seem to have some neuroprotective function. Unless you have either severe insulin resistance, or an inability to produce insulin, you won’t go into uncontrolled ketosis. From what I understand the only difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis is degree of difference, and the wikipedia article says you can go into ketosis from a ketogenic diet. Where are you getting that insulin resistance/deficiency is the only way you can go into ketoacidosis? And if that’s the case, why would your blood acid levels go high with low endogenous insulin from diabetes but not from diet? ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/574 "2011-03-11T16:12:28Z")
Keep in mind that low-carb still allows for some carbs. I average about 60 carb grams a day, most from vegetables with a tiny bit of sugars from the dairy in cheese. My diet doesn’t have an induction phase. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/575 "2011-03-11T17:08:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > the last 30 years of (Fat is bad! Eat more “heart healthy” carbs! Avoid meat! Stock up on cereal and grain! Fat? Well, for god’s sake don’t eat fat or meat! ) Is this really your experience? Because I have been around for the past thirty years and it is not my experience. I have never seen any news story or published research suggesting that you should not eat meat at all, only that you should eat more lean meats. In addition, most of the recommendations have been to address what were perceived as potential health threats, outside of the relative effect on weight. I’m not going to argue whether these recommendations are valid - I’ve certainly seen enough medical theorizing turned into advice without supporting proof to know that there is a lot more theoretical medicine being practiced than people realize. Moreover you, of all the people participating in this thread, should realize that advice from the medical community doesn’t translate into changes in behavior of the population in general. If anything, there is usually a kickback effect for some people, resulting in medical advice that actually spurs some to do the opposite. What has actually happened in the past thirty years (and more) is that consumption of all types of food has risen: [This chart is about availability, but I think I can safely say that production will be closely tied to consumption.](http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/FoodConsumption/app/reports/displayCommodities.aspx?reportName=Total%20Calories&id=36#startForm) I don’t agree with low-carb diets, but that is in part because it is a one-size-fits-all explanation of weight problems, \*just like the eat-less-exercise-more \*solution is. IMO, the reality is that every person that is overweight has a number of different behaviors that caused the problem and each behavior needs to be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/576 "2011-03-11T18:23:36Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Incidentally, Stoid, what do you make of people who have lost weight successfully by simply counting calories? > [@Stoid](#): > > I think they can handle a lot of discomfort, and hat’s off. As ladyfoxfyre points out, counting calories shouldn’t work at all according to your theory (and your OP). Your Lean Larry/Beefy Bob example basically says that Bob can’t lose weight at all by keeping his calorie count at 1500, because his body will still turn it to fat. The only thing that matters is carbs, right? So why do people lose weight when counting calories but not carbs? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/577 "2011-03-11T19:46:05Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > So why do people lose weight when counting calories but not carbs? Because sufficient restriction of all calories will result in weight loss. I don’t believe I have ever denied that, Meyer. Wait. I KNOW I’ve never denied that because I’ve never even thought it, so there’s no “belief” involved. My point (the carb issue compleely set aside) is that the degree of restriction required for people like me, who are genuinely obese (vs. a little thick after 20 years of inattention) reaches a point where it’s virtually impossible for the great majority of human beings to sustain it. Repeatedly trying makes it worse and worse, until successfully losing and maintaining means sustaining permanent semi-starvation. This is not news. The man who brought us the “answer” that the only thing we needed to do to reverse obesity was manage the calories in vs. the calories out was named [Ancel Keys](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys) the “Father of Modern Dieting”. We can also thank him for the (false) idea that fat makes us fat, and that fat is responsible for heart disease. Ancel Keys was a dishonest researcher. This was most famously shown in his “Seven Countries Study” that “proved” the link between fat and heart disease. He combed the data for heart disease and diet, and selected _only_ the countries where there was a correlation between the two to “study” for his “research” on fat’s effect on heart disease. After all, why study a country that has a high fat diet and low heart disease? How will that sell the theory you’ve already decided is true? So back to calories. Mr. Keys conducted T[he Minnesota Starvation Experiment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment)…love that title. Ancel took 36 healthy white male volunteers between the ages of 22 and 33 and, to put it simply, reduced their calories to see what would happen. First they were studed for three months under normal eating of 3200 calories. Then, for 24 weeks, their calories were cut to 1560, and included a lot of high carbs, actually. Then they were returned to normal levels at varying stages (read the link). The subjects were also required to walk a total of 22 miles per week. In other words, they ate less and they exercised more. The published results required two volumes! 1385 pages of data and analysis. First thing was that they all lost 25% of their bodyweight. So yes, we know that sufficient restriction of calories, coupled with more activity to expend the calories you get will, in fact, cause you to lose weight. But here’s what that study also showed: > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]Among the conclusions from the study was the confirmation that prolonged semi-starvation produces significant increases in **depression** , **hysteria** …[/li] > [li]Indeed, **most** of the subjects experienced periods of **severe emotional distress and depression**.[6][/li][/ul] > [ul] > [li]There were extreme reactions to the psychological effects during the experiment including \*\*self-mutilation \*\*(one subject amputated three fingers of his hand with an axe, though the subject was unsure if he had done so intentionally or accidentally).[/li][/ul] > > [ul] > [li]Participants exhibited **a preoccupation with food** , both during the starvation period **and the rehabilitation phase** [/li] > [/ul]. > > [ul] > [li]Sexual interest was drastically reduced, and the volunteers showed signs of social withdrawal and isolation.[8][/li][/ul] > > [ul] > [li]The participants reported a decline in concentration, comprehension and judgment capabilities, although the standardized tests administered showed no actual signs of diminished capacity.[/li][/ul] > [ul] > [li]There were **marked declines in physiological processes indicative of decreases in each subject’s basal metabolic rate (the energy required by the body in a state of rest),** reflected in reduced body temperature, respiration and heart rate. [/li][li]Some of the subjects exhibited edema (swelling) in their extremities, presumably due to the massive quantities of water the participants consumed attempting to fill their stomachs during the starvation period.[7][/li][/ul] This blogger actually read the original material (!) and includes more information than the wiki and what is generally talked about by those who insist that fat people are full of shit, such as: > [@](#): > > Next you can see what happened to them in the first 33 weeks of refeeding. … Initially, caloric consumption **reached a level of nearly 6,000 calories per day.** \*\*Even when men were physically incapable of ingesting more food they mentioned a persisting sensation of hunger - even right after eating. Sound familiar dieters? \*\* This phenomenon in response to caloric deprivation is a well-understood fact that obesity researchers refer to as “rebound hyperphagia.” At week 33 of refeeding, body weight and body fat levels peaked. You can see that even though weight didn’t go much higher than starting levels during this phase, \*\*\*body fat levels were substantially higher - peaking at 40% higher than they were at the start of the starvation experiment. Unfortunately, it’s at this point that most dieters get disgusted with their “lack of willpower” and take the plunge into another restricted diet of some sort that triggers this same infinitely counterproductive phenomenon again. > > * * * > > You can see that fat stores drop much faster coming down the home stretch than body weight, suggesting that muscle, bone, organ, blood, and other tissue losses are being replaced between week 33 and week 58 of refeeding. Even so, at the end of 58 weeks - more than an entire year of refeeding, the men still have **more body fat and weigh more overall than they did at the beginning of the experiment,** although you can clearly see that they are well on their way to once again becoming healthy young men in automatic, willpower-free energy balance. Total weight gains were a few kilograms, 5-10 pounds overall. I’ll just quote the blogger some more, since he says it just fine: > [@](#): > > There are two important lessons to be learned here. The first, is that \*\*cutting calories is a doomed strategy for improving your ratio of body fat to lean body mass. \*\* There is no suggestion that being overweight will make this work any differently **as any overweight person with a history of yo-yo dieting can tell you.** Sadly, the person often blames his or herself for lack of will to keep weight off, when it is an almost **physiological certainty that it will lead to increased body fat.** Using exercise or a calorie deficit seems to make little difference in how this scenario plays out. Having access to such irrefutable and concise knowledge since 1950 makes what the Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig’s of the world peddle for weight loss a criminal act. So, at the same time that Ancel Keys proved, without a doubt, that eating less and exercising more will definitely make you lose weight, he also proved what any serious dieter will tell you: it lowers your metabolism, turns you into a food-obsessed depressive, drives you insane, and in the end makes you fatter than you were when you started. So frankly, when people keep trying to shove it down my throat, and most especially when people do so with snide, sneering, hostile, rude remarks towards me or other fat people, I kinda feel like they are telling me this because they know exactly how pointless, painful, and destructive calorie restriction actually is, and they just consider it the punishment fat folks deserve for having the gall to get fat in the first place. Sorry if it pisses you off, but I think I’ll pass. And post threads like this so the fat people in the gallery can hear it for themselves no matter how hard you or anyone else tries to shout it down, because it’s a goddamn crime the way we’ve all been lied to and mistreated around this subject. And that’s my agenda. What’s yours? ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/578 "2011-03-11T19:54:49Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Because sufficient restriction of all calories will result in weight loss. I don’t believe I have ever denied that, Meyer. Wait. I KNOW I’ve never denied that because I’ve never even thought it, so there’s no “belief” involved. There’s a denial right here: > [@Stoid](#): > > But Bob’s body, given only 750 calories, will burn 300 and store the other 450 as fat. then Bob will grow weaker, more lethargic, and insanely hungry. If Bob fails to eat more calories, Bob’s body is likely to start breaking down Bob’s muscles and non-fat tissue for fuel, because Bob’s regulatory system for all this is fucked up and his body wants him to have a certain amount of fat, and will make sure he does, no matter how much \*\*\*or how little \*\*\*Bob actually eats. If I had more time to waste, I’m sure I could find a dozen more… ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/579 "2011-03-11T20:21:06Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > The only thing that matters is carbs, right? So why do people lose weight when counting calories but not carbs? well…maybe just as low carb diets often automatically reduce calories (through reducing appetite), low calorie diets may also be having the effect of automatically reducing carbs? After all, when you go on a diet, the first thing that most people do is eliminate or at least minimize sugars - no cake, cookies, ice cream, donuts - along with going easy on the pasta, potatoes? - that’s kind of a given even on a low cal diet, isn’t it? Which, coincidentally is the first thing to go on a low carb diet also. just speculating… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/580 "2011-03-11T20:30:46Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > If I had more time to waste, I’m sure I could find a dozen more… To find “more”, you’d need to start by finding _one_. I’ve always found that no matter what happens later in a thread, it’s always a good practice to read [the OP](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13471731&postcount=1), just to get the lay of the land. My OP was long, I grant you, but this is only **the third sentence** : > [@](#): > > And probably every thread that ever talked about diet is filled with people saying “it’s just calories in vs. calories out, it’s just that simple!” and in the purest possible sense, t **hey are right: if you subtract enough calories over a long enough period of time, virtually every human being will lose weight.** I think that can only be described as a clear, unambiguous declaration, the meaning of which it is impossible to misconstrue, (assuming you speak English, of course.). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=30)