# I unhappily report that I am right about obesity and diet (Very long) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543 "2011-02-16T04:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/661 "2011-03-16T02:29:19Z")
I assume, having low-carbed it in the past, that you’re familiar with mashed cauliflower instead of potatoes? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/662 "2011-03-16T02:41:55Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I assume, having low-carbed it in the past, that you’re familiar with mashed cauliflower instead of potatoes? Yeah, and I have to say I don’t get it. The only way it resembles mashed potatoes for me is visually. But I _like_ it, I like cauliflower. It’s just cauliflower, though, not potatoes. Most of the things that try to actually “be” the thing they replace miss the mark for me. They are fine in and of themselves, but I don’t generally find they satisfy my desire for the other thing, or add the way the other thing adds to the meal. (My lettuce taco shells don’t actually remind me of real tortilla shells, they create their own pleasures. Its more about extending and experimenting with the asian Lettuce Wrap dish than really using lettuce to “replace” tortillas. I’m always open, though. The closer to having the pleasures of high-carb foods I can get without messing it all up by actually eating those foods, the happier I am, so I’m not going to assume until I try. Oh, and having said that I have to say that I know from experience I have to approach replacements very carefully, because if they are too good or successful, they can be very triggering. I adore pancakes, and i found a great low-carb pancake mix. Bad idea, because I don’t get much satisfaction from one small pancake…and a pancake mix good enough to be worth eating is almost guaranteed to have enough carbs that it should be eaten very sparingly. So why go there at all? ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/663 "2011-03-16T03:42:21Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Which is another way of saying you have no problem continuing to believe what you are convinced of to start with, in spite of any and all evidence you are shown that _should_ lead you to question it. > > By the way, you were very convinced that Fumento’s piece was “damning” to Taubes’ journalistic integrity; Now that you’ve seen evidence of _Fumento_’s journalistic integrity, (less than impressive, to put it mildly) I guess you now think _ **he’s** _ not to be trusted, right? Or do you still find him the voice of reason, seeing as how he’s agreeing with your position, the one you won’t consider re-thinking in the face of any evidence you’re shown? > > None of it matters, of course… we are all entitled to believe as we see fit, and do as we see fit. I’d just like to understand exactly how you come to your conclusions and convictions. Because so far you’ve offered up your “bullshit meter” based on reading a lot of “scientific writing”, and Fumento, who Taubes’ has thoroughly discredited. Again…you’re entitled. You can believe anything at all based on nothing at all, I’d just like to know for my own reference when we engage in debate and discussion. > > (And really, Meyer, I’m only picking on you because you at least made the effort to come up with _something_ other than your own opinion, when almost everyone else who is pooh-poohing this is working off nothing _but_ their opinion. Since you tried, it would be very nice to see you demonstrate some consistence in how you assess integrity. Doing so would speak well to _your own_ integrity, and that in turn would lend a little weight to your opinion of others’. Cool how that works…) First off, I provided the first review I posted ([here](http://www.weightymatters.ca/2011/01/book-review-gary-taubes-why-we-get-fat.html)), which you seem to be ignoring. Second, I don’t see why we should ignore the Fumento review based solely on what Taubes says about him - he’s hardly an impartial judge is he? Third, I’m not sure why you don’t seem to believe that experience in reading scientific writing can help you to interpret new data when you want us to put a lot of trust in you based on your life history of reading about obesity. Fourth, I’m not really interested in proving my ‘integrity’ to you, and I don’t think anything would convince you of that anyways. It all comes down to whatever you end up believing. You obviously believe everything Taubes says, and you are certainly entitled to that. I don’t believe everything he says, and I think I’ve provided ample reasons why. It has nothing to do with ‘continuing to believe whatever I was convinced of to start with’, it has to do with looking at the evidence and using my own judgment. The fact that someone continues to believe what they believed before does not necessarily imply that they are closed-minded and never considered the alternatives. You wanted people to read you book, and I read your book. I’m not obliged to agree with you about what it says, and I’m clearly not alone in my opinion about it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/664 "2011-03-16T04:08:52Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > First off, I provided the first review I posted ([here](http://www.weightymatters.ca/2011/01/book-review-gary-taubes-why-we-get-fat.html)), which you seem to be ignoring. You didn’t offer it up as a demonstration of Taubes’ lack of journalistic integrity, which is what I took issue with. > [@](#): > > Second, I don’t see why we should ignore the Fumento review based solely on what Taubes says about him - he’s hardly an impartial judge is he? First, I have a problem with the idea that we’re supposed to take Fumento’s words as proof that Taubes’ isn’t trustworthy, but not do the reverse. Secondly, not based on what Taubes said about _ **him** _…what Taubes said about **the people and information being discussed.** > [@](#): > > you want us to put a lot of trust in you based on your life history of reading about obesity. Incorrect. What I want is for everyone to recognize that most intelligent, reasonanbly well informed obese people are not very likely to be wandering around in a clueless haze about the subject of obesity, diet and exercise because they are obese. Especially not because they are obese, since being obese means they are much more motivated and therefore much more likely to have sought out a lot more information on the subject than the average non-obese person. > [@](#): > > Fourth, I’m not really interested in proving my ‘integrity’ to you, and I don’t think anything would convince you of that anyways. I don’t doubt that. But we’re not alone here, I thought you might have some investment in how you appear overall. > [@](#): > > You wanted people to read you book, and I read your book. I’m not obliged to agree with you about what it says, and I’m clearly not alone in my opinion about it. No argument with this at all. ---
**Author:** ![Elysian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@Elysian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysian)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/665 "2011-03-16T09:33:22Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Fucking squirrels is frowned upon at the gym. Er, so I’ve heard. You must go to a different gym than me. ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/666 "2011-03-16T13:06:17Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > You didn’t offer it up as a demonstration of Taubes’ lack of journalistic integrity, which is what I took issue with. I was reminding you of that review in response to your statement “I’d just like to understand exactly how you come to your conclusions and convictions. Because so far you’ve offered up your “bullshit meter” based on reading a lot of “scientific writing”, and Fumento, who Taubes’ has thoroughly discredited.” That statement was incorrect - I also offered a review written by a medical doctor as well as specific criticism of some of Taubes’ claims (all overweight people are following current medical advice, only 20 extra calories a day will make you obese). > [@](#): > > I don’t doubt that. But we’re not alone here, I thought you might have some investment in how you appear overall. I have no problem with how I appear overall - I think the readers of the dope are plenty able to form their own opinions based on our words and posting history. As I said, I feel that I have provided ample reasons for my opinion. I’m sorry if you feel that anyone who disagrees with you is just toeing the party line and closing their eyes to what you see as incontrovertible evidence. Just because you feel that way doesn’t make it true. If anything I think you’re the one who "continues to believe what they were convinced of to start with’, since you started the thread convinced that overweight and obese people got that way through no fault of their own, and that calorie restriction and exercise would never lead to weight loss. Conveniently, Taubes gave you a ‘scientific’ reason to keep believing that. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/667 "2011-03-16T14:31:15Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > This is completely OT, but that broken [/SIZE] tag cracked me right up. I tabbed out and noticed it when I came back. :smack: > [@Stoid](#): > > I take responsibility for _everything_ that happens in my own life, actually. But I don’t think that you and I would define it quite the same way. I define it as “owning my decisions and my response to things I have no control over.” You apparently define it as “pointing to every possible reason for my actions other than my own choices.” > [@Stoid](#): > > I disagree. If you are writing an article that is _questioning_ the thoroughly familiar and widely accepted, why would you spend a lot of space quoting people saying it repeatedly? Next week, on \*\*\*Stoid \*_at the SDMB_: Stoid defends a book about the moon landing hoax. “If you are writing a book that is questioning the thoroughly familiar and widely accepted, why would you spend a lot of space quoting people who give all the evidence why we actually visited the moon and rebutting all of the conspiracy theories that claim we didn’t?” > [@Stoid](#): > > Most of the things that try to actually “be” the thing they replace miss the mark for me. This is a chronic problem with vegetarian foods. The worst ones try to be imitations of something meat; the best ones just make use of their own properties instead of trying to imitate something they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/668 "2011-03-16T14:36:04Z")
To further expand why this is cherry-picking: If you are challenging a widely held belief, you need to acknowledge that it’s widely held. That means that if someone is actively disagreeing with you, you need to break down why they’re wrong. When someone, especially someone making a scientific claim, only cites those who agree with them, it strongly suggests that it’s because they \*have no response \*to their challengers. That’s what cherry-picking means: you comb through the sources on a topic, and instead of addressing all of them, you only present the ones that support your position. When you encounter something that suggests that what you’re arguing for is wrong, instead of refuting it, you ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/669 "2011-03-16T14:53:20Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I define it as… > [@Stoid](#): > > I take responsibility for _everything_ that happens in my own life, actually. But I don’t think that you and I would define it quite the same way. > > And I answered your question honestly, but don’t take that to mean that I’ve opened a dialog inviting examination of the topic, because I haven’t: both your point of view and your purpose are plain and neither support the possibility the you are remotely interested in an honest discussion on the nature of responsibility. > [@](#): > > This is a chronic problem with vegetarian foods. The worst ones try to be imitations of something meat Frankenfood. Works for some apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/670 "2011-03-16T14:54:40Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > To further expand why this is cherry-picking: > > If you are challenging a widely held belief, you need to acknowledge that it’s widely held. He did. Extensively, repeatedly, in depth. In the article and both books. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/671 "2011-03-16T14:54:43Z")
I think Taubes actually does a good job (in _Good Calories, Bad Calories_) of pointing out why the “conventional wisdom” is mistaken and why studies were misinterpreted and the politics involved in putting out guidelines for diet. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/672 "2011-03-16T14:56:12Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > I have no problem with how I appear overall - I think the readers of the dope are plenty able to form their own opinions based on our words and posting history. Then all is well. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/673 "2011-03-16T17:37:17Z")
> [@Taubes](#): > > Among Fumento’s primary criticisms are that I only cite individuals who support my thesis and disregard those who don’t. > [@](#): > > If Fumento did interview more, then it’s conceivable he omitted the comments, for instance, of those who believed that my article had merit. ISTM, that one of the primary criticisms was that a bunch of researchers’ quotes were twisted and/or taken out of context. Pretty damning to Taubes’ credibility, regardless of it being “conceivable” that other people interviewed thought his article “had merit”, whatever loosy goosy meaning that has. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/674 "2011-03-16T18:51:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > ISTM, that one of the primary criticisms was that a bunch of researchers’ quotes were twisted and/or taken out of context. Nope. No one accused him of mistating facts, or taking them out of context. The concerns were that by being included at all readers would infer that the parties in question were in complete agreement with Taubes’. Basically: [ul] [li]Taubes: I’m doing an article on the causes of obesity.[/li][li]Researcher: here’s my opinion/data xyz.[/li][li]Taubes article references opinion/data xyz accurately, in the correct context, without editorializing, extrapolating, or suggesting anything at all about what the researcher believes about Taubes’ overall POV.[/li][li]Researcher reads article, disagrees with Taubes’ overall thesis, freaks that they or their work is included at all, assuming that people will assume that they must agree with Taubes in all things. Blame and accuse Taubes inaccurately and falsely.[/li][li]People read some bits and pieces of this, assume that angry = accurate. Don’t bother to follow up, persist in the incorrect and unexamined beliefs about what the facts are, and assert them as truth to others.[/li][/ul] Less assuming would be good. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/675 "2011-03-16T19:12:56Z")
Then maybe you shouldn’t assume that I had assumed anything. The researchers interviewed said things like > [@](#): > > “I saw my name in it and all that was quoted to me was not wrong. But in the context it looked like I was buying the rest of that crap.” He [Reaven] adds, “I tried to be helpful and a good citizen, and I ended up being embarrassed as hell. He sort of set me up.” That means he thought it was taken out of context. There’s also the fact that they seem to think they gave data xyz, and Taubes only thought data y was worth mentioning. No, it seems to me Taubes isn’t very trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/676 "2011-03-16T21:20:49Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Then maybe you shouldn’t assume that I had assumed anything. The researchers interviewed said things like > > That means he thought it was taken out of context. There’s also the fact that they seem to think they gave data xyz, and Taubes only thought data y was worth mentioning. No, it seems to me Taubes isn’t very trustworthy. No, it means _ **exactly** _ what I said: > [@](#): > > “But in the context it looked like I was buying the rest of that crap” means, **exactly, precisely, umabiguously** : “because he included the truth about me within an article that says things I do not agree with, **people will assume I agree with the OTHER things**.” Which is _exactly_ what I’ve said. Several times. I even said that the fear was to be placed IN the context of the article, not that Taubes took their words or data OUT of the context in which it was presented. To take something out of context is to remove it from other information in such a way as to make it appear to \* mean something it does not actually mean\*. Writing the truth, accurately,\*\* does not \*\*do that, and that’s what Taubes’ did. Once more: assuming is bad juju. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/677 "2011-03-16T21:22:55Z")
Oh and here: > [@](#): > > There’s also the fact that they seem to think they gave data xyz, and Taubes only thought data y was worth mentioning. No, it seems to me Taubes isn’t very trustworthy. you do this: > [@](#): > > People read some bits and pieces of this, assume that angry = accurate. Don’t bother to follow up, persist in the incorrect and unexamined beliefs about what the facts are, and assert them as truth to others. Congratulations. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/678 "2011-03-16T21:31:16Z")
That any of this is being thrown out as proof of anything is [ludicrous](http://web.mit.edu/knight-science/fellows/interviews/taubes.html), of course: > [@](#): > > **HENRY:** Several of the researchers that you quoted in your article complained that because of the way you quoted them, they appeared to endorse the Atkins diet, which they do not. Were you aware of how their quotes would be construed? Do you think they’re justified in asserting that you’re misrepresenting their views? > > ``` > **TAUBES:** You could twist that question, which I'm going to, and ask whether journalists have an obligation **to assure that everyone cited in an article agrees with the over-riding thesis.** > > ``` from my earlier link: > [@](#): > > Among Fumento’s primary criticisms are that I only cite individuals who support my thesis and disregard those who don’t. He ignores the fact that because the article challenges the accepted dietary dogma, and indeed acknowledges that challenge in the opening paragraph, by definition it implies that considerably more than half of all researchers and administrators believe the accepted dogma. If they didn’t, it wouldn’t be dogma. The point of writing the article was precisely to note that some equally respectable scientists question this dogma, and then to explain why. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/679 "2011-03-16T23:55:57Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Congratulations. No, no, congratulations to you for finding the one true way. As for me, I think I’ll just recant on my death bed. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/680 "2011-03-17T02:58:39Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > [ul] > [li]Taubes article references opinion/data xyz accurately, in the correct context, without editorializing, extrapolating, or suggesting anything at all about what the researcher believes about Taubes’ overall POV.[/li][li]Researcher reads article, disagrees with Taubes’ overall thesis, freaks that they or their work is included at all, assuming that people will assume that they must agree with Taubes in all things. Blame and accuse Taubes inaccurately and falsely.[/li][li]People read some bits and pieces of this, assume that angry = accurate. Don’t bother to follow up, persist in the incorrect and unexamined beliefs about what the facts are, and assert them as truth to others.[/li][/ul] > Less assuming would be good. Seriously? Less assuming by everyone, or just everyone besides you? Wow, you have a lot invested in this garbage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=35)