# I unhappily report that I am right about obesity and diet (Very long) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543 "2011-02-16T04:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/721 "2011-03-19T18:06:15Z")
> [@Meyer6](#): > > Are you under the impression that expensive, long-term research should be done on every new diet idea that comes along? Read the rest of the post you quoted. It didn’t just “come along” - it was there first. ---
**Author:** ![jabiru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@jabiru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jabiru)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/722 "2011-03-19T23:20:52Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Well it certainly won’t hurt to try… > If you are genuinely obese, and you find this works, I think you do have to look at it as a lifelong change, BUT BUT BUT… it doesn’t have to be, probably shouldn’t be as restrictive on maintenance as it is losing. I think the biggest problem is that some people get triggered when they eat carbs again. It’s kind of like smoking or drinking, one is too many and not enough at once. Oh, I’m definitely going to keep trying. I definitely agree about the carbs being a trigger. Trouble is, I love carbs more than anything else and some days in particular, it’s impossible to stop thinking about them. My father was an alcoholic and I’m of half a mind that this sort of addictive personality can be genetic. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/723 "2011-03-20T04:19:47Z")
> [@jabiru](#): > > Oh, I’m definitely going to keep trying. I definitely agree about the carbs being a trigger. Trouble is, I love carbs more than anything else and some days in particular, it’s impossible to stop thinking about them. If you love carbs that much I think it’s safe to say that any diet that restricts those to near oblivion simply isn’t going to work for you. The bottom line is, if this Atkins style diet was so head and shoulders above the others in terms of effectiveness and ease of implementation, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. You have to learn what works for you and that includes paying close attention to your failures to see where your weaknesses and strengths lie in applying your willpower. Then next time play to your strengths and either shore up or avoid your weaknesses and see how far you get next time. It took me a few runs to quit smoking, believe you me. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/724 "2011-03-20T05:51:23Z")
> [@jabiru](#): > > Oh, I’m definitely going to keep trying. I definitely agree about the carbs being a trigger. Trouble is, I love carbs more than anything else and some days in particular, it’s impossible to stop thinking about them. What that tells me is that if you can manage to stick to a severe carb restriction for say, 10 days… you will be very pleased to find that you no longer feel obsessed with them. The very fact that you “can’t stop thinking about them” tells me that you have a vicious cycle going on in your body that needs to be broken; feeding your carb addiction stokes the addiction until it’s blazing so hot it’s all you can think about. You haven’t said much about your age or weight or general health, but you sound from this like someone headed for major obesity and diabetes. I strongly urge you to give VLC (Very Low Carb) eating a try for 10 days. Keep your carbs below 20grams a day for that period, and the carbs you DO eat, make sure they aren’t sugar or flour or anything similar: greens, veges, dairy. Don’t use artifical sweeteners, because that can be triggering, so no diet soda or anything like that. Just cut yourself off. Just for ten days. Let yourself eat as much as you want of protein, fat, leafy green veges, eggs & dairy, macadamia nuts, some peanuts or peanut butter, no sugar (watch the carb count). You may want to eat to excess for a few days just to make up for the lack of carbs…don’t worry about it. The idea at first is to break your hardcore cravings. Also, drink a lot of water, as much as you can. If you don’t like water particularly, a good trick is to make sure it’s extremely cold, then drink it with a straw. The straw in particular is very effective. Something I’ve learned over the years and been reminded of a great deal recently is how much I can mistake thirst for cravings, especially for fruit and sweets. If I drink plenty of water, it helps. Ten days is easy. Try it. See how you feel. I’ll bet you find that while you may not be “cured” of the desire for carbs, you don’t miss them as much as you thought you would. Every day that you do it gets easier. And who knows, you might find you’re a lot more comfortable than you dreamed, you might drop some weight, and before you know it you’re bloggin about your low-carb success. Ten days. Complete commitment. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/725 "2011-03-20T18:19:18Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Ten days is easy. Try it. See how you feel. I’ll bet you find that while you may not be “cured” of the desire for carbs, you don’t miss them as much as you thought you would. Every day that you do it gets easier. > > And who knows, you might find you’re a lot more comfortable than you dreamed, you might drop some weight, and before you know it you’re bloggin about your low-carb success. Yeah, it’s so easy you might start blogging about your low-carb success before you even have any! ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/726 "2011-03-20T18:32:10Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Ten days is easy. Try it. See how you feel. I’ll bet you find that while you may not be “cured” of the desire for carbs, you don’t miss them as much as you thought you would. Every day that you do it gets easier. > > And who knows, you might find you’re a lot more comfortable than you dreamed, you might drop some weight, and before you know it you’re bloggin about your low-carb success. > > Ten days. Complete commitment. You made it what? Four, five days before you sat down to a huge plate of cornbread? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/727 "2011-03-20T18:48:28Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > You made it what? Four, five days before you sat down to a huge plate of cornbread? After 4 days you can reward yourself for not going crazy. It’s in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/728 "2011-03-20T21:59:13Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > You made it what? Four, five days before you sat down to a huge plate of cornbread? Planned cheats. By week two, when planned cheat day came I didn’t really care to cheat. So instead of making it a particular day, I have made it 7 days or more between. So my second cheat was 9 days after the first. When I indulged, I was amazed and delighted to discover that I didn’t really give a shit. It was alright (ice cream), but it actually tasted too sweet, and I stopped eating halfway through and threw the rest away. About the only thing I really crave in any serious way is fruit. So I drink plenty of water, and if I still want fruit, I have a small portion and it’s fine. A few strawberries is great. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/729 "2011-03-20T22:01:12Z")
So I wrote to Gary Taubes and asked him if I could grill him a bit, and he wrote me back, telling me yes, I absolutely could. So I don’t want to waste my opportunity. I’m inviting y’all to give me specific questions to ask him. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/730 "2011-03-20T22:04:40Z")
My first question to him was: > [@](#): > > "… then in the last day or so it’s been about the Slate piece, and the way you’ve supposedly misrepresented the WHI study. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13587808&postcount=706](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13587808&postcount=706) I do wonder why you picked that, of all things to make your point, it doesn’t seem very strong. " His reply: > [@](#): > > “As for the WHI, I chose it because it was the kind of intervention that Michelle Obama is pushing, minus the physical activity aspect, and it is the most conspicuous single study out there these days that counters calories-in-calories-out. That’s all I wanted to do. The smaller studies of calorie-restricted diets are all over the place and usually the investigators interpret those to fit their preconceptions. We can follow-up on this more in a later question (when it’s not 11 PM plus now on a Saturday night.)” ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/731 "2011-03-20T22:13:24Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Planned cheats. > > By week two, when planned cheat day came I didn’t really care to cheat. So instead of making it a particular day, I have made it 7 days or more between. So my second cheat was 9 days after the first. When I indulged, I was amazed and delighted to discover that I didn’t really give a shit. It was alright (ice cream), but it actually tasted too sweet, and I stopped eating halfway through and threw the rest away. > > About the only thing I really crave in any serious way is fruit. So I drink plenty of water, and if I still want fruit, I have a small portion and it’s fine. A few strawberries is great. So, you admit that you can’t even follow a diet for ten days straight? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/732 "2011-03-20T22:43:35Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > So, you admit that you can’t even follow a diet for ten days straight? While I think someone in Stoid’s circumstances should try to avoid “planned cheats” as much as possible (I hate using the term cheating for going off-plan) until she gets to a point where she actually knows what low-carb eating is and isn’t doing for her, in the long term people do need to find ways to live in the world, including going off plan under certain circumstances and not letting those off-plan moments turn into off-plan days or weeks or months or years. If it’s a way of eating instead of just a weight-loss diet, nothing should be completely off-limits except ridiculous overindulgence. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/733 "2011-03-20T23:49:18Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > So, you admit that you can’t even follow a diet for ten days straight? “admit”? ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/734 "2011-03-21T00:05:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > While I think someone in Stoid’s circumstances should try to avoid “planned cheats” as much as possible (I hate using the term cheating for going off-plan) until she gets to a point where she actually knows what low-carb eating is and isn’t doing for her, in the long term people do need to find ways to live in the world, including going off plan under certain circumstances and not letting those off-plan moments turn into off-plan days or weeks or months or years. > > If it’s a way of eating instead of just a weight-loss diet, nothing should be completely off-limits except ridiculous overindulgence. I totally agree with this. People shouldn’t be judged or encouraged to give up the plan just because they couldn’t stick to it 24/7. There is going to be a certain trial and error period while they find what works for them. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/735 "2011-03-21T00:16:50Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > If it’s a way of eating instead of just a weight-loss diet, nothing should be completely off-limits except ridiculous overindulgence. 'zackly. The only way it’s a problem is if it’s a trigger. So far - anything but. I’m settling in very nicely, better than I ever have in the past, no doubt because I feel safer. If I gave myself permission to go off plan in a significant way right now I can’t even think of anything I’d really care that much about eating. Which is pretty amazing. Yesterday I was thinking I might just go all the way to my birthday at the end of May, then make one of my favorite cakes for a splurge. ---
**Author:** ![Richie\_Incognito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Richie\_Incognito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richie_Incognito)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/736 "2011-03-21T00:39:58Z")
Stoid, I appreciate the lengths you are going to have Taubes elaborate on his choice of studies he uses. In his recent response to you, Taubes is claiming that the study " is the most conspicuous single study out there these days that counters calories-in-calories-out. " I would ask him to elaborate on how the study counters calories-in-calories-out. I did reread the study [http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/295/1/39.full.pdf](http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/295/1/39.full.pdf) and the study has nothing to do with calories. It’s a study to see if the claim made by low carb diet proponents, that a low fat-high carb diet leads to weight gain is accurate. The participants were instructed to maintain their same calorie intake but replace fat calories with calories from other sources, mainly carbohydrate. After 7 years, the study determined that a diet low in fat and high in consumption of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, and without focus on weight loss, does cause weight gain. It is impossible to conclude from the study what Taubes is getting out of it. If Taubes diet ideas work, that’s teriffic. I wish everyone much success. I do think as an author, Taubes was just slammed by reaching a bunch of false conclusions about a study that people could easily get their hands on and dissect. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/737 "2011-03-21T00:52:31Z")
I agree with **Richie** , that was a bullshit study to quote in order to demonstrate that calories in calories out doesn’t work. The study does not even control for calories, it controls for percentage of calories from fat. From the study itself: > [@](#): > > **Because this trial was not designed to evaluate relative effectiveness of diet composition on caloric reduction or weight loss or maintenance, it cannot definitively establish an optimum fat intake, but rather it provides evidence that restricting fat intake does not lead to weight gain. Thus, it is likely that weight-loss diets throughout a relatively wide range of fat intake may be effective as long as calorie intake is restricted.** His assessment that this study demonstrates his theory is flat out, factually wrong. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/738 "2011-03-21T01:30:00Z")
> [@Richie\_Incognito](#): > > It’s a study to see if the claim made by low carb diet proponents, that a low fat-high carb diet leads to weight gain is accurate. > > The participants were instructed to maintain their same calorie intake but replace fat calories with calories from other sources, mainly carbohydrate. > > After 7 years, the study determined that a diet low in fat and high in consumption of fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, and without focus on weight loss, does cause weight gain. > > It is impossible to conclude from the study what Taubes is getting out of it. Underlining mine. Did you forget a “not”? ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/739 "2011-03-21T02:36:26Z")
In fact, let’s cherrypick a few quotes from that same study to demonstrate the point: “Weight loss was greatest among women in either group who _decreased their percentage of energy from fat_.” “The WHI Dietary Modification Trial provides a unique opportunity to evaluate whether the adoption and maintenance of a lower-fat eating pattern that incorporates higher carbohydrate intake in the form of vegetables, fruits, and grains is associated with weight change, particularly in the a_bsence of any focus on weight loss or total calorie reduction_” " Weight loss from baseline through the follow-up period was greatest among women who had the greatest decrease in percentage of energy from fat; the small number of women who increased percentage of energy from fat during the study showed weight increase" “Three recent studies reported that individuals assigned to a hypocaloric lowcarbohydrate diet (with high protein and fat content) lost more weight during a 6-month period than did those assigned to reduced-fat (25%-33%) diets 14-16; however, in the study that was extended to 1 year, no differences in weight loss were demonstrated between the low-carbohydrate and lowfat diet groups after 12 months.” “In comparing quintiles of change in percentage of energy intake from fat at follow-up compared with baseline for the participants, a clear relationship was observed between a change in percentage of fat and weight change in the intervention and control groups; those women with the greatest reduction in fat intake had the largest weight loss.” “Overall, this large randomized trial demonstrates that dietary recommendations for reducing fat and replacing it with vegetables, fruits, and grains do not increase body weight, which implies that guidelines that restrict fat intake and advocate increases in complex carbohydrates have not been a contributing factor to the weight gain that has been occurring in the United States throughout the past several decades.” This is the study that’s supposed to validate his work? This study that doesn’t even address the issues of weight loss or calorie restriction? The one that finds out that low-fat diets actually do work, and determines in the conclusion that it doesn’t really matter how you change your diet’s fat content as long as you restrict calories, and that carbs are not the enemy? I wonder if you actually read the study or just trusted Taubes’ interpretation of it. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/740 "2011-03-21T03:09:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > While I think someone in Stoid’s circumstances should try to avoid “planned cheats” as much as possible (I hate using the term cheating for going off-plan) until she gets to a point where she actually knows what low-carb eating is and isn’t doing for her, She’s the one that said that: > [@](#): > > Ten days is easy. It’s obvious that she can’t even make it nine days without cheating. She is no position to judge any weight-loss program, let alone proclaim that: > [@](#): > > Ten days is easy. She plans cheats when she hasn’t even been on a diet for five days, yet she condemns every weight loss plan that doesn’t allow her to eat all she wants as too hard. She found a diet that allows her to eat she all wants, and can’t even follow that. Yet, she proclaims that: > [@](#): > > Ten days is easy. > [@jsgodess](#): > > in the long term people do need to find ways to live in the world, including going off plan under certain circumstances and not letting those off-plan moments turn into off-plan days or weeks or months or years. > > If it’s a way of eating instead of just a weight-loss diet, nothing should be completely off-limits except ridiculous overindulgence. I fully concur with this, yet the **Stoid** has yet to have followed this wonderful diet for more than nine days. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=38)