# I unhappily report that I am right about obesity and diet (Very long) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543 "2011-02-16T04:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/921 "2011-03-24T02:01:05Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > The problem must be addressed physiologically I disagree. With enough discipline, any smoker can permanently kick the smoking habit. Same goes for weight loss. It’s all mental. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/922 "2011-03-24T02:15:36Z")
From **Zyada** **1. At what age did you change your eating habits?** 1. **2. Do you find eating pleasurable? Did you before you changed your eating habits?** Though I no longer look at food as a primary source of pleasure, I love the taste of many foods I currently eat. Like fresh grilled fish. Yum. **3. Do you eat and enjoy vegetables?** Yes. A few days a week I’ll chomp down on a bag of raw broccoli and carrots. I usually dip them in fat-free dressing. **4. Do you find your job stressful?** No. I’m an engineer in an R&D lab. It’s very laid back. **5. What do you do to relieve stress?** Shoot guns. 😛 Actually, I don’t have much stress, to be honest. I have never been a stressed out person. **6. Do you drink coffee or consume caffeine in any form?** Yea, coffee in the morning. And a diet Coke or sugar-free energy drink every now and then. **7. How much do you exercise?** I run during lunchtime 2 or 3 days a week at work. About 5.5 miles. But I must also say that I am _not_ an athlete; I do not have a “runner’s build”. I am short and stocky. Running is tough for me, but I do it anyway. Not for weight loss, though. I do it to keep my cardiovascular system healthy. **8. What other activities do you enjoy outside of work?** I’m also an adjunct prof at a local college. For leisure I work on things at home. And I like to shoot guns. (LOL.) **9. Do you drink alcoholic drinks?** Yes, and that is probably my biggest vice. I love beer. But I only drink it on Friday and Saturday evenings. Given my diet, I can easily “afford” the beer calories. **10. Do you smoke? (I’m guessing not)** No. **If an evil fairy waved her magic wand and said - “You can eat all of anything that you want and will remain healthy and your current weight, but - every time you have sex (with another or solo), you will gain weight.” What do you think would happen to you?** Wow, that’s a tough one. Not sure. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/923 "2011-03-24T11:23:11Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I disagree. With enough discipline, any smoker can permanently kick the smoking habit. Same goes for weight loss. It’s all mental. Yes, the evidence is overwhelmingly in your favor. Except for the ‘anyone’ part. Reality tends to beat your observation down (Observation? You don’t even have that working for you.) – Nevermind reality. Maybe the problem for eaters (were we talking about smokers?) is that virtually no one has the mental staying power. Virtually no one isn’t equivalent to ‘anyone’. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that eating is much more complex, physiologically, than smoking… ya know… given how eating tends to have roots in survival… life, and all that nonsense. Smoking? Not so much. . ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/924 "2011-03-24T12:42:48Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > Yes, the evidence is overwhelmingly in your favor. Except for the ‘anyone’ part. I disagree. The word “can” is the struggle. Yes, there are some people with physiological issues that make weight loss difficult or impossible, but for the rest of the populate if they were forced on a reduced calorie diet they would lose weight. But we don’t force people on restricted diets, and people make choices and trade offs every time they choose what to eat. I don’t think **Crafter\_Man** is saying it is easy, or likely, or even recommended, but it can be done. I’m proof of it, as are many others. It wasn’t easy, and it is still a bit of a struggle, but I’ve kept the 60 lbs off and I’m loving my life now. Of course not everyone will have success, and we should be looking for other techniques and methods to help people lose weight. And no single path will work for everyone. But it’s not impossible, just difficult, even extremely difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/925 "2011-03-24T14:37:12Z")
There is a physiological reason it is “difficult”, which is a word that gets tossed around, but severely undermines the theme that I insist be developed: Damn near impossible. Tossing out the word “mental” is an utter cop out for dealing with the reality that the brain is an organ. I’ve been fit my whole life, so don’t go on about your success, which stands out like a needle in a haystack in the sense that the haystack is those trying to lose a bunch of weight and maintain it. It’s mental. That’s great! YAY! You got it all figured out!! How should we deal with that? Pep talks? Support groups? Psychologists? Trainers? Motivations? Imagery? Music? . ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/926 "2011-03-24T15:04:00Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > It’s mental. That’s great! YAY! You got it all figured out!! How should we deal with that? Pep talks? Support groups? Psychologists? Trainers? Motivations? Imagery? Music? > . I vote for straitjackets and lobotomies. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/927 "2011-03-24T15:07:22Z")
For the freaks maybe, such as the occasional freak that packs on some huge am’t of weight and then defies the norm (by a great deal) by losing it and keeping it off long term. They have it all figured out! ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/928 "2011-03-24T15:13:50Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Really? Come on. Are there any solid studies that show a co-morbidity between ADD and being obese? I’m ADD too, and somehow have managed into my (weeks away from mid) 30s to keep my waist at no more than 28" even though I’ve got a wicked sweet tooth besides…by exercising to off-set the obscene amount of sweets I eat. Well, I was going to find several studies, but I think this one covers that: > [@](#): > > Some recent studies have reported a strong link between obesity and attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). However, to date, the factors underlying this newly described comorbidity are still unclear and unexplored. In the present article, we proposed that the dopamine system and implicate dopamine genes contribute to explaining the association between ADHD and obesity. The background for this hypothesis comes from studies on the association between ADHD and dopamine, as well as from investigations on dopamine in obese individuals. There is strong evidence that indicate catecholamines dopamine is very important in the pathophysiology of ADHD, as well as in the mechanism of therapeutic action of stimulant drugs. Furthermore, increasing evidence indicated that dopaminergic reward system is significantly associated with obesity. With regard to the therapeutic implications, recent studies indicate that methylphenidate (MPH) – a drug widely used for ADHD reduced overall energy intake with a selective reduction in dietary fat. Findings are consistent with a reward deficiency model of obesity whereby low brain dopamine predicts overeating and obesity, and administering agents that increase dopamine results in reduced feeding behavior. Given the above background, we hypothesize that the increased prevalence of ADHD in obese individual could be explained by the imbalance of dopaminergic reward system. [Does dopaminergic reward system contribute to explaining comorbidity obesity and ADHD? Medical Hypotheses - Volume 70, Issue 6, Pages 1118-1120 (2008)](http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877(07)00636-6/abstract) But I also find this to be of interest - [from one of the first people to recognize the relationship](http://www.drjohnfleming.com/html/disordered_eating_and_add.html): > [@](#): > > Using a sequential case study design, 57 women and 13 men having a BMI of 35 or more were assessed during a one-year period. As a function of the referral process, these people tended to be more chronic than the general population in their struggle with weight, and most had extensive histories of failed attempts at weight management. > > … To [be identified as probabl AD/HD] the respondent would have to report significant difficulty across numerous behavioral domains, including problems with concentration, emotionality, school problems, social problems, and disorganization. It was found that _60% of the sample_ described a childhood history consistent with a diagnosis of childhood AD/HD. Empasis mine. And another stat: [Children and adolescents who were un-medicated had ~1.5 times the odds of being over-weight.](http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/122/1/e1) Remember, AD(h)D is about control, not about specific behaviors. Some people with ADD can’t read at all, while reading is one of my “make the world go away” behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/929 "2011-03-24T15:25:51Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > I’ve been fit my whole life, so don’t go on about your success, which stands out like a needle in a haystack in the sense that the haystack is those trying to lose a bunch of weight and maintain it. I’m not sure where this hostility is coming from. I never said that I followed the only path to success through sheer will-power and my superior moral fiber. I tried losing weight many times in the past and managed via luck, education, and hard work to find something that worked for me this time. It’s only been 18 months that I’ve maintained this; I could easily backslide and regain the weight. I don’t hold any illusions that I’ve discovered anything special or that this method is the right one for everyone. They biology can certainly be studied more and we can learn more about how the body uses food. We don’t know everything. I agree that behaviors in the real world are the most important part of diet/fitness. We should be doing everything we can to find new and better motivational/behavioral tools because in the end what we do is more important that what we know. I’m not really seeing anyone in this thread disagreeing on that point. All I know is what worked for me. It’s not a universal truth; it’s just my experience. And I hold no animosity towards **Stoid** , I wish her the best and maybe she’s found something that will work for her. Based on my experiences I have my doubts that it will work but that’s neither here nor there. I don’t know her and I’m not an expert on biology. I actually think that most posters on this thread agree on a large number of things, and they’re just getting hung up on emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/930 "2011-03-24T15:26:44Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > And I pose the question to everyone I know in the fields we deal with, and I promise to seek out that successful person, and I try to include them in my log and talk to them or learn about them. > > I don’t have ten people in 27 years to document. I am working with a gastric bypass case right now. If he is like the others (surgeries), he can expect to put all the weight back on. That’s a pretty big mental check to decide on surgery, meet eating coaches, etc. That’s a pretty good state of mind… just like all the others. > > Obese = virtually doomed. [Persons successful at long-term weight loss and maintenance continue to consume a low-energy, low-fat diet.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9550162?dopt=Abstract) which I found at [The National Weight Control Registry](http://www.nwcr.ws/default.htm). What do you think of that site Philster? While I am not doubting success is rare, they seem to have managed to find more than 10 people. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/931 "2011-03-24T15:46:07Z")
Right, the NATIONAL Weight Control Registry looked into the the folks who were successful long term. It finds something common. That’s good. What % of people attempting does that represent? It’s the National Weight Control Registry collection of around 400+ people who were successful. It’s not the National Everybody Who Tried Registry. That’s not a test group of 400+ people and – WOW – look at the results of this group! It’s a collection of successes out of an enormous pool of attempts to see what successes had in common. Totally in line with where I stand and my experience. . ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/932 "2011-03-24T16:15:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > [Persons successful at long-term weight loss and maintenance continue to consume a low-energy, low-fat diet.](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9550162?dopt=Abstract) which I found at [The National Weight Control Registry](http://www.nwcr.ws/default.htm). What do you think of that site Philster? While I am not doubting success is rare, they seem to have managed to find more than 10 people. The study certainly reflects my experience; every person I have met who used to be fat, and has kept the weight off for at least five years, did so via a low fat, low calorie diet. I am not saying they don’t exist, but I have yet to meet someone who has kept the weight off for more than five years using a fad diet, e.g. Adkins. As for whether the problem is mental or physiological, you would be amazed at what a person is able to do when they want something very very badly. If a person just “wants” to lose weight, and ends of failing, it means that they did not _really really really_ want to lose weight. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/933 "2011-03-24T16:21:00Z")
I wanted to play in the NHL. Just didn’t want it badly enough. You cannot declare failure = not wanting it enough. Not that easy. . ---
**Author:** ![EmAnJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@EmAnJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmAnJ)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/934 "2011-03-24T16:39:51Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Calculate your lean body mass and eat .7 to 1 grams of protein per pound of lean mass. I think you mean per kg of lean mass, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/935 "2011-03-24T16:47:38Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Everyone in the thread who claimed that it would be impossible to lose weight through a low-carb, high-fat and protein diet ( **Submerged,** **billfish** , and to a lesser degree, **Crafter Man** were the big ones I recall). I think if you read back through the thread, you’ll see that you mischaracterized a lot of posts. The people here who were challenging Stoid didn’t say that a low-carb, high-fat and protein diet \*couldn’t \*work–merely that a diet where you replaced a lot of carbs \*with an equal number of calories from other sources \*(no matter what those other sources were) wouldn’t help you. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > **5. What do you do to relieve stress?** > > Shoot guns. :edges nervously away: > [@Philster](#): > > There is a physiological reason it is “difficult”, which is a word that gets tossed around, but severely undermines the theme that I insist be developed: Damn near impossible. So, have you found the Alien Fatty Ray that magically made everybody start getting really fat a couple of decades ago, that it suddenly became “impossible” to be thin? > [@Philster](#): > > I wanted to play in the NHL. Just didn’t want it badly enough. > > You cannot declare failure = not wanting it enough. Not that easy. There are a finite number of available positions in the NHL. The number of people in the world who can be a healthy weight, on the other hand, is limited only by how many people are currently alive. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/936 "2011-03-24T16:51:06Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > I wanted to play in the NHL. Just didn’t want it badly enough. > > You cannot declare failure = not wanting it enough. Not that easy. > > . It would be impossible for most people to play in the NHL, regardless of how much they trained. By contrast, _any_ obese person can lose weight. To prove this, lock them in a bathroom for a couple months and feed them nothing but bread and water at 800 calories per day. While not the healthiest of diets, there is a 100% chance they lose weight. Probably a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/937 "2011-03-24T16:54:22Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It would be impossible for most people to play in the NHL, regardless of how much they trained. By contrast, _any_ obese person can lose weight. To prove this, lock them in a bathroom for a couple months and feed them nothing but bread and water at 800 calories per day. While not the healthiest of diets, there is a 100% chance they lose weight. Probably a lot. But bread has carbs! ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/938 "2011-03-24T17:16:21Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I think if you read back through the thread, you’ll see that you mischaracterized a lot of posts. The people here who were challenging Stoid didn’t say that a low-carb, high-fat and protein diet \*couldn’t \*work–merely that a diet where you replaced a lot of carbs \*with an equal number of calories from other sources \*(no matter what those other sources were) wouldn’t help you. > > :edges nervously away: > > So, have you found the Alien Fatty Ray that magically made everybody start getting really fat a couple of decades ago, that it suddenly became “impossible” to be thin? > > There are a finite number of available positions in the NHL. The number of people in the world who can be a healthy weight, on the other hand, is limited only by how many people are currently alive. Virtually impossible to _become obese and return to a ideal BMI range_ and stay there (X). No, I am not looking for an Alien Fatty Ray. If you are looking, good luck. I suggest we point said ray at the physiological component that makes it darn near impossible to attain X. That’s a very good point about the NHL being of finite size. Very good. I retract the statement. Given the number of X slots available, I suspect them to be filled post haste. Millions upon millions of X slots for the taking! And a few former obese folks with self-proclaimed success have it figured out for\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. They have it figured out for a tiny % of the obese. I mean, if I were wrong, we wouldn’t be here having this exchange. Whatever these former obese folks have accomplished works for them. It’s not in any way an approach for the masses of obese. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/939 "2011-03-24T17:19:28Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It would be impossible for most people to play in the NHL, regardless of how much they trained. By contrast, _any_ obese person can lose weight. To prove this, lock them in a bathroom for a couple months and feed them nothing but bread and water at 800 calories per day. While not the healthiest of diets, there is a 100% chance they lose weight. Probably a lot. I will label that a strawman argument. The issue on the table is about people living in reality. How does one accomplish ‘\*obese to ideal BMI and maintain it long term’ \*in the real world, has – ESSENTIALLY – remained a problem without a solution. Any obese person cannot – currently – lose weight in the real world and keep it off long term. Scant few can, but not just “any” obese person. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/940 "2011-03-24T17:22:26Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > A lot of people (most people?) have a strong emotional attachment to food. They would genuinely get depressed if they ate what I ate. A long time ago I also had an emotional attachment to food; eating fatty, greasy food brought me \*\*\*great \*\*\*pleasure. When I decided to get serious about my diet, I severed my emotional attachment with food. Instead of eating to satisfy my primordial urges, I decided to look at food simply as a source of nutrients and energy. For the last 20 years I have had a scientific relationship with food, not an emotional one. Thanks for answering my question. This is the point I was getting at. You say you severed your emotional connection with food. In my experience, this is the point at which dieters stumble and fail over and over again. I think the reason that over 90% of people who lose weight gain it back is that they are unable to sever that connection. Do you have any insight into how you did it, or any advise for the people who find that they can’t “just do it”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=48)