# I unhappily report that I am right about obesity and diet (Very long) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543 "2011-02-16T04:25:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/961 "2011-03-24T21:33:40Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > If it is physically possible for a fat person to lose weight (which is \*always \*the case), and if their arms and hands are controlled by their brain, then they can use their brain to control the types and quantities of food they put in their mouth. Saying that they “don’t have this control” is a lie. They _ **do** _ have this control. They have simply made a decision that the pleasure they receive from food trumps the pleasure of being a normal weight. Apparently, for an extreme majority it is not currently possible. Why does this reality piss off so many people? . ---
**Author:** ![Guesticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f04885/32.png) [@Guesticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guesticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/962 "2011-03-24T21:34:05Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > If it is physically possible for a fat person to lose weight (which is \*always \*the case), and if their arms and hands are controlled by their brain, then they can use their brain to control the types and quantities of food they put in their mouth. Saying that they “don’t have this control” is a lie. They _ **do** _ have this control. They have simply made a decision that the pleasure they receive from food trumps the pleasure of being a normal weight. Hi. My first post, a friend told me about this thread. Interesting. Anyway, if someone has ADD their brain doesn’t work the way that yours works. You’re wrong when you say that it is a lie. A person with ADD can’t “choose” to have control (in the way you mean) anymore than a person who is depressed can choose to not be depressed, or a person who has bi-polar disorder can choose not to have it. And even better example is a person with Tourettes syndrome, because they can control themselves, but only in a very limited way that ultimately breaks down, and that’s similar to the impulse control problems that ADD people have. It is a chemical problem in their brains that affects the way they experience things and behave. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/963 "2011-03-24T21:37:13Z")
And someone with syndrome X might not be able to control eating. Obesity severely recodes/changes the signaling. Kinda takes a lot of control out of it. . ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/964 "2011-03-24T21:42:32Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > Going from Obese to ideal BMI and sustaining it for years: It’s practically unobtainable. It’s, essentially, been a failing proposition, except for the scant few… and I call them freaks… medical freaks. > . Oh, BS. I know at least two formerly obese folks off the top of my head that are no longer obese and havent been that way for a long time. I seriously doubt they are the only two in my state. Are they the majority of obese people I know? No Do I know 200 other similarly obese people at the same social level I know them? No Do I know 100? No Do I know 50? No Do I know 25? No Do I know 10? Now we are getting somewhere. So, off the top of my head, with the folks I know, something like 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 obese people have gotten it under control. Out of those that haven’t, as far as I can tell a sizable fraction aren’t even trying nd or don’t even care. Another about equal fraction are sorta trying. And about another equal fraction are trying pretty hard but keep backsliding or are doing something wrong (like trying fad diets rather than changing their relationship with food). Yeah, the odds aren’t that good, but lay off the freak business. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/965 "2011-03-24T21:47:14Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > If it is physically possible for a fat person to lose weight (which is \*always \*the case), and if their arms and hands are controlled by their brain, then they can use their brain to control the types and quantities of food they put in their mouth. Saying that they “don’t have this control” is a lie. They _ **do** _ have this control. They have simply made a decision that the pleasure they receive from food trumps the pleasure of being a normal weight. You’re making it sound as if “ooh, cookie” triumphs over heart disease, joint pain, high blood pressure, etc. But for many people it’s a choice between those health issues and the things I was discussing earlier: - Having all of your energy going into fighting the cravings, so that there is none left over for job, relationships, etc. - Being so miserable that you are unable to function - Sapping your will to live It’s not so much that the pleasure of food trumps the pleasure of being a normal weight, it’s that the misery of not having the food you want is a living hell. It’s great that you were able to avoid that, but as **Zyada** points out, you attribute that ability to your personality. Not everyone has your personality. I give you that anyone could _physically_ give up unhealthy eating, but at what mental cost? I agree with everyone who says that you need to change your relationship with food, the question is how? I don’t think anyone has come up with a satisfactory answer that works for more than a single individual. And until we can figure out how to do this and share that information, then no diet, low-carb, low-calorie, or anything else, is going to work. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/966 "2011-03-24T21:52:58Z")
**Billfish** : Is it 1 in 5 or 1 in 10? 1 in 20? What? 90% failure rate? What? It’s way worse than that. I’ve heard all this, crap before you spew yet work in the industry and fail to see it. Sorry. Like I’ve never experienced your claims before. Jesus, over the course of your life, of all the people running towards the goal… stop, you’re killing me with your numbers. I can go to my gym and open the books and see the names of 800 new clients who were “highly motivated” and spent time, money, energy and have been through multiple attempts. I go all over the community, and where are all these successful stories? Where? I don’t know if 3 of the 800 will succeed. The problem with your stance is that in flies in the face of the reality that is out there, while mine jives with it. I can’t scrape together a list of people who went from obese to ideal BMI and stayed that way for years. Sorry… Can’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/967 "2011-03-24T21:57:52Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > Apparently, for an extreme majority it is not currently possible. Why does this reality piss off so many people? You are using “possible” in a way that is different than I use “possible”. I would prefer to say that it’s very difficult, hard to achieve, and extremely hard to sustain. But it was possible for me, and I did it by changing my relationship to food. I met many folks in Weight Watchers who have gone from obese to a healthy BMI by changing their relationship with food. I also met many folks (far more, in fact) that weren’t successful. For most folks (barring medical and psychological issues that would prevent it) it is physically possible to do so. It’s also very, very, very hard. Of course we should be looking at tools, techniques, and information that will help people lead healthy, happy lives. Lots of folks are working on that today. There are a plethora of choices for programs, diets, and medical procedures today, but they’re not working as well as we’d like. I’m not sure the point of your argument. Are you saying that nothing can be done? Are you saying we need to invest more to find new techniques/tools/information? Are you saying people are doomed to remain obese in today’s society? We get that you don’t think changing your relationship with food is practical for many (most?) people even though it has worked for some of us. **My question is what course of action do you recommend we as a society should follow to help people lead healthy happy lives?** ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/968 "2011-03-24T22:02:57Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > - Having all of your energy going into fighting the cravings, so that there is none left over for job, relationships, etc. > > - Being so miserable that you are unable to function > > - Sapping your will to live If not eating junk food does these things to you- LITERALLY makes you suicidal, etc.- then you deeply need therapy. I’m saying this as a fat person who is working to get in better shape. Sure, it’s not easy (but for me, it’s not easy just because I’m a poor planner and eating better requires planning, otherwise you stop at the drive thru), but it most certainly shouldn’t “sap your will to live.” If your relationship with food is truly THAT unhealthy, you are in desperate need of professional help. I’m not saying this in that mocking, sneering, internet point and laugh at the fatty way, but I mean it in the way I’d tell this to a friend who expressed a similar sentiment to me. If a friend with a drinking problem said not having alcohol made them want to kill themselves- and actually meant it- I’d suggest they go to rehab. Same thing here. If the problem is that deeply in you, then that’s the type of thing you shouldn’t even try to face on your own- this is what professionals are for. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/969 "2011-03-24T22:10:54Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > If you re-read this, please note that it was your personality that allowed you to change your relationship with food. For another person, changing their relationship to food would be on par with changing their personality. Or possibly requiring them to flat-out change their personality. [Frank Bruni](http://www.npr.org/templates/text/s.php?sId=112069453&m=1) alternately fought and used bulimia as a weight-loss tool, ballooned up to 270 lbs, and at age 36 decided enough was enough. He worked out and used moderation in eating. (The linked interview was done in 2009, making it about 8 years after his decision to lose weight.) He’s loved food all his life, as has his family. His job was food critic for the New York Times, and is now their food writer. Did he change his personality? Maybe. He says he’s learned moderation without returning to bulimia, and obviously food was/is a huge part of his background and his career. Changing your eating is tough, because people don’t want to have to think about their food. They want to eat for lots of reasons, and not analyze. Well, lots of things in life are hard. If for you eating has deep psychological components, then you need to get in there and do tough, painful work if you’re going to fix that. Absolutely no diet will help you if you can’t face your food issues. I stopped eating meat (all animal flesh or byproducts, not including dairy/eggs) two decades ago. It is habit to read labels, educate myself on where meat ingredients might be ‘hiding’ in my food, and how to get sufficient protein when I’m not a big eggs-and-dairy consumer. I didn’t stop eating meat because it tasted bad, either. These days I regard it as not-food, which I will cook for others but have no desire to taste. Similarly, I’m working on my tendency to stress-eat for comfort or boredom alleviation. When I gain 15 lbs over the fall and winter, taking me out of a normal BMI, because work is rough and the holidays have lots of food, that’s something I have to take responsibility for, and work to change. I’m slowly tapering off the weight by very moderate calorie reduction and altering my eating habits and my thought patterns about eating. I’m back in the normal BMI range and am continuing down to my goal weight. Beck’s cognitive behavioral therapy book about eating sounds fabulous and right up my alley, as it shows how you can break harmful thought processes around eating and investing it with meaning that isn’t innate to it. I still truly, deeply love food. I just don’t turn to it as a comfort very much these days. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/970 "2011-03-24T22:12:16Z")
> [@Philster](#): > > [I can’t scrape together a list of people who went from obese to ideal BMI and stayed that way for years. > > Sorry… Can’t do it. Yet, I’ve got two right off the top of my head. I could probably come up with more, but then the total number of obese people I know that meet the same level of familiarity criteria would go up too so its probably a wash percentage wise. What are the odds that my random sample is freakishly lucky? Keep in mind my experience a random sample. The folks that come to you are the people who have probably already failed a dozen times over. Or they think they can pay to be thinner. The people who could do it probably didnt come to you in the first place. Then again, maybe “your” method just doesnt work? Yeah, the “just do it!” folks probably arent helping matters. But, on your end, “the its impossible!” aren’t either. I’d even argue thats the worser of the two evils. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/971 "2011-03-24T22:13:38Z")
Yea, I don’t get the whole “energy to fight cravings” thing. That’s the second time she’s mentioned it. I \*love \*French fries, but when they’re offered to me I simply don’t eat them. It doesn’t require me to expend energy to _not_ eat them. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/972 "2011-03-24T22:16:02Z")
**Ferret Herder** : your experiences sound \*very \*much like my own. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/973 "2011-03-24T22:58:38Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > If it is physically possible for a fat person to lose weight (which is \*always \*the case), and if their arms and hands are controlled by their brain, then they can use their brain to control the types and quantities of food they put in their mouth. Saying that they “don’t have this control” is a lie. They _ **do** _ have this control. They have simply made a decision that the pleasure they receive from food trumps the pleasure of being a normal weight. You assume that we have total control of our brains. Speaking as a person with a BA in Psychology, and a person with Attention Deficit Disorder, and a person who has probably had more than her share of SOs with mental problems, I can assure you that you have far less control over your brain than you think you do, even for a person of your personality style. I have spent my entire life being told - “You can do it if you just try hard enough”. And not about weight. About school and work and relationships, and all the other aspects of living that you probably take for granted. I have felt like crying, and sometimes have actually cried because someone wanted me to be a certain way and [James Kirk] I just couldn’t do it [/James Kirk]. When you blithely state that anyone can lose weight just by exerting self-control, you are being patronizing, and you are being judgemental about people you do not know and who live in a world you would not be able to comprehend. And that makes you part of the problem. I’ve seen enough studies that show that stress, depression and social stigma cause weight gain _at a hormonal level_ (not at a behavioral one) to know that. And don’t give me that “I was just telling her what worked for me” BS. No, you said “If you don’t do this, you will fail”. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/974 "2011-03-24T23:02:12Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Yea, I don’t get the whole “energy to fight cravings” thing. That’s the second time she’s mentioned it. > > I \*love \*French fries, but when they’re offered to me I simply don’t eat them. It doesn’t require me to expend energy to _not_ eat them. Do a search on ADD for threads started by myself. The last month should be fine. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/975 "2011-03-25T01:07:51Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > You assume that we have total control of our brains. I don’t buy the argument that a person is not in control of what they stick in their mouth. I think it’s nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/976 "2011-03-25T01:28:44Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > If not eating junk food does these things to you- LITERALLY makes you suicidal, etc.- then you deeply need therapy. I agree completely. That’s why I believe that for many people, therapy, or some form of _mental health_ treatment is the only solution for obesity. Maybe my experiences have colored my thinking, but the yo-yo dieters I know, the obese people who try, and try, and try again to lose weight, and even succeed on occasion, but always gain it back, all seem to have deeply ingrained issues that prevent them from eating in a healthy way. I guess I’ve never really known anyone like **Crafter-Man** , who love food, but can just give it up without serious emotional ramifications. I think that he is painting with too broad a brush when he implies that most people can just stop eating too much, but maybe I am doing the same thing by thinking that it’s almost impossible to do without psychological help. I guess the visible people, the dieters and the obese, are the ones who struggle. People who can just eat healthy with discipline alone are invisible in the dieting world, because they are no longer fat. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/977 "2011-03-25T01:42:40Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I believe that for many people, therapy, or some form of _mental health_ treatment is the only solution for obesity. I actually agree with this. As I’ve repeatedly said, obesity is a mental problem, not a physical problem. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I guess I’ve never really known anyone like **Crafter-Man** , who love food, but can just give it up without serious emotional ramifications. I have never smoked, but I think the best analogy I can give is people addicted to cigarette smoking. There are many ex-smokers out there who gave it up cold-turkey. I did the same with bad food. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I think that he is painting with too broad a brush when he implies that most people can just stop eating too much, but maybe I am doing the same thing by thinking that it’s almost impossible to do without psychological help. Anyone can do it. Here’s proof: Let’s say I am an angel sent from heaven. I wave a magical wand over an obese mother, and I tell her that her daughter would die unless she lost 120 pounds and maintained a normal BMI for the rest of her life. I am very confident she would suddenly find the discipline to lose the weight, and keep it off. > [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I guess the visible people, the dieters and the obese, are the ones who struggle. People who can just eat healthy with discipline alone are invisible in the dieting world, because they are no longer fat. No, we struggle too. We miss out on all yummy foods, like ice cream, French fries, and fried chicken. Heck, just the other day my supervisor brought in homemade cherry cupcakes made by his wife. Damn, I really wanted one of those. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/978 "2011-03-25T02:11:15Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Here’s proof: Let’s say I am an angel sent from heaven. I wave a magical wand over an obese mother, and I tell her that her daughter would die unless she lost 120 pounds and maintained a normal BMI for the rest of her life. I am very confident she would suddenly find the discipline to lose the weight, and keep it off. That’s hardly proof, that’s your speculation. I am very confident that the vast majority of obese women and yo-yo dieters that I know would be _unable_ to keep the weight off, even if it cost them a child. There are plenty of women whose children have died because they could not control their addictions - drunk driving alcoholics being only the most obvious example. Until that angel appears, we’ll have to call this one a draw. > [@](#): > > No, we struggle too. We miss out on all yummy foods, like ice cream, French fries, and fried chicken. Heck, just the other day my supervisor brought in homemade cherry cupcakes made by his wife. Damn, I really wanted one of those. ☹ But somehow, you were presumably able to do your work all day without being distracted by those cherry cupcakes. You didn’t get up numerous times to casually walk by them. You didn’t go back to your desk and clench your fists trying to keep from eating one. And you didn’t finally grab your wallet and sneak out of work in the middle of the afternoon to satisfy your craving in private. This is what many, many obese people suffer. How many days, weeks, months and years of that could you take before you succumbed? You are extrapolating your experience to everyone, and it’s just not valid. If you have the secret to breaking the emotional connection with food so that you don’t experience that kind of struggle on a continual basis, then please share it, because there are plenty of people who could benefit. But “anyone can do it” is not a solution, any more than the fact that some smokers can quit cold turkey means that anyone can. And there’s another counterexample for your angel. How many pregnant women continue to smoke, knowing the risks for their unborn child, because they are unable to quit? And how many allow their babies to die because of it? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/979 "2011-03-25T02:39:43Z")
A recent episode of Radiolab discussed [ways some people deal with being their own worst enemy](http://www.radiolab.org/2011/mar/08/). One suggestion was that many people just can’t seem to let long-term goals win out over short-term. The [first segment](http://www.radiolab.org/2011/mar/08/you-v-you/) discussed two women who had been friends for years, and were now senior citizens. One quit smoking a long time prior, while the other had not. When the second woman decided to quit smoking, she made not-smoking a short-term priority: both of them had been highly active in the Civil Rights Movement in the '60s, so she pledged that if she smoked again, she would donate money to the KKK. Obviously, you have to be motivated to be honest with yourself to pull something like this off, but it worked for her. In her brain, it was no longer “feel better someday” versus “smoke now”; it was “donate money to the KKK?!!! no way!” versus “smoke now.” She didn’t slip, and stopped. A baby being born healthy is a long-term goal. Not getting type II diabetes is a long-term goal. People wanting to try this would have to be self-aware enough to be able to determine something that deeply meaningful for them, and to have the conscience to be able to stick with the promise to themselves. In light of that, I would hope the ‘quitter-to-be’ has been able to get themselves to a strong mindset. Full disclosure: Since the assertion is being made by some that once you’re **obese** , you can almost never lose weight long-term, I will note that I have not been obese. I have been overweight. In addition, my mother and I have the same body frame, and she has fought obesity all her life. I don’t think I ever remember her at a normal weight, just overweight or the low end of obese. Her mother was obese for as long as I can remember, and grandma developed type II diabetes. I grew up in a blue-collar family where there were many times where employment was precarious and often my mother worked second shift just to keep us afloat and be there during the day for child care. I sometimes stock (not hoarding-level, fortunately) my cupboards with food to feel secure, as a result. If there is such a thing as genetic predisposition and/or environmental predisposition towards being overweight or obese, I certainly have those factors. I understand obsessing over wanting a snack, and I think cognitive behavioral therapy, even just self-directed with a workbook, is an excellent way of overcoming those kinds of unfortunate emotional entanglements with eating. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543/980 "2011-03-25T04:17:23Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > If your relationship with food is truly THAT unhealthy, you are in desperate need of professional help. Maybe. And maybe it’s all the dieting. The following is from the book, “Handbook for Treatment of Eating Disorders” > [@](#): > > **The Effects Of Starvation On Behavior: Implications for Eating Disorders** > > One of the most important advancements in the understanding of eating disorders is the recognition that severe and prolonged\*\* dietary restriction can lead to serious physical and psychological complications \*\*(Garner, 1997). …Perhaps the most powerful illustration of **the effects of restrictive dieting and weight loss on behavior** is an experimental study conducted almost 50 years ago and published in 1950 by \*\*Ancel Keys \*\*… > > The experiment involved carefully studying 36 young, healthy, psychologically normal men while restricting their caloric intake for 6 months. More than 100 men volunteered for the study as an alternative to military service; the 36 selected had **the highest levels of physical and psychological health** , as well as the most commitment to the objectives of the experiment. What makes the “starvation study” (as it is commonly known) so important is that many of the experiences observed in the volunteers are the same as those experienced by patients with eating disorders. > > During the first 3 months of the semistarvation experiment, the volunteers ate normally while their behavior, personality, and eating patterns were studied in detail. During the next 6 months, the men were restricted to approximately half of their former food intake and lost, on average, approximately 25% of their former weight.\*\* Although this was described as a study of “semistarvation,” it is important to keep in mind that cutting the men’s rations to half of their former intake is precisely the level of caloric deficit used to define “conservative” treatments for obesity (Stunkard, 1993) **. The 6 months of weight loss were followed by 3 months of rehabilitation, during which the men were gradually refed. A subgroup was followed for almost 9 months after the re-feeding began. Most of the results were reported for only 32 men, since 4 men were withdrawn either during or at the end of the semistarvation phase. Although the individual responses to weight loss varied considerably, the men experienced dramatic physical, psychological, and social changes. In most cases, these changes** persisted during the rehabilitation or re-nourishment phase.\*\* > > **Attitudes and Behavior Related to Food and Eating** > > One of the most of the striking changes that occurred in the volunteers was a dramatic increase in food preoccupations. The men found concentration on their usual activities increasingly difficult, because they became plagued by incessant thoughts of food and eating. During the semistarvation phase of the experiement, food became a principal topic of conversation, reading, and daydreams. Rating scales revealed that the men experienced an increase in thinking about food, as well as corresponding declines in interest in sex and activity during semistarvation. The actual words used in the original report are particularly revealing: > > > [@](#): > > > > As starvation progressed, the number of men who toyed with their food increased. They made what under normal conditions would be weird and distasteful concoctions, (p. 832). . . Those who ate in the common dining room smuggled out bits of food and consumed them on their bunks in a long-drawn-out ritual, (p. 833). . . Toward the end of starvation some of the men would dawdle for almost two hours after a meal which previously they would have consumed in a matter of minutes, (p. 833). . . Cookbooks, menus, and information bulletins on food production became intensely interesting to many of the men who previously h ad little or no interest in dietetics or agriculture, (p. 833). The volunteers often reported that they got a vivid vicarious pleasure from watching other persons eat or from just smelling food. (p. 834) > > > > ``` > > In addition to cookbooks and collecting recipes, some of the men even began collecting coffeepots, hot plates, and other kitchen utensils. According to the original report, hoarding even extended to non-food-related items such as "old books, unnecessary second-hand clothes, knick knacks, and other 'junk. Often after making such purchases, which could be afforded only with sacrifice, the men would be puzzled as to why they had bought such more or less useless articles" (p. 837). One man even began rummaging through garbage cans. This general tendency to hoard has been observed in starved anorexic patients (Crisp, Hsu, & Harding, 1980) and even in rats deprived of food (Fantino & Cabanac, 1980). Despite little interest in culinary matters prior to the experiment, almost 40% of the men mentioned cooking as part of their postexperiment plans. **For some, the fascination was so great that they actually changed occupations after the experiment; three became chefs, and one went into agriculture!** > > > > The Minnesota subjects were often caught between conflicting desires to gulp their food down ravenously and consume it slowly so that the taste and odor of each morsel would be fully appreciated. Toward the end of starvation some of the men would dawdle for almost two hours over a meal which previously they would have consumed in a matter of minutes. . .they did much planning as to how they would handle their day's allotment of food. (p. 833) The men demanded that their food be served hot, and they made unusual concoctions by mixing foods together, as noted above. There was also a marked increase in the use of salt and spices. The consumption of coffee and tea increased so dramatically that the men had to be limited to 9 cups per day; similarly, gum chewing became excessive and had to be limited after it was discovered that one man was chewing as many as 40 packages of gum a day and "developed a sore mouth from such continuous exercise" (p. 835). > > > > ``` > > > [@](#): > > > > During the 12-week refeeding phase of the experiment, most of the abnormal attitudes and behaviors in regard to food persisted. A small number of men found that their difficulties in this area were quite severe during the first 6 weeks of refeeding: > > **Binge Eating** > > > > ``` > > During the restrictive dieting phase of the experiment, all of the volunteers reported increased hunger. Some appeared able to tolerate the experience fairly well, but for others **it created intense concern and led to a complete breakdown in control.** Several men were unable to adhere to their diets and reported episodes of binge eating followed by self-reproach. During the eighth week of starvation, one volunteer flagrantly broke the dietary rules, eating several sundaes and malted milks; he even stole some penny candies. He promptly confessed the whole episode, and became self-deprecatory" (p. 884). **While working in a grocery store, another man suffered a complete loss of will power and ate several cookies, a sack of popcorn, and two overripe bananas before he could "regain control" of himself. He immediately suffered a severe emotional upset, with nausea, and upon returning to the laboratory he vomited. . .He was self-deprecatory, expressing disgust and self-criticism.** (p. 887) > > > > ``` > > One man was released from the experiment at the end of the semistarvation period because of suspicions that he was unable to adhere to the diet. He experienced serious difficulties when confronted with unlimited access to food \*\*“He repeatedly went through the cycle of eating tremendous quantities of food, becoming sick, and then starting all over again” (\*\*p. 890). During the refeeding phase of the experiment, many of the men lost control of their appetites and “ **ate more or less continuously** ” (p. 843). > > Even after 12 weeks of refeeding, the men frequently complained of increased hunger immediately following a large meal. > > > [@](#): > > > > One of the volunteers ate immense meals (a daily estimate of 5,000-6,000 cal.) and yet started “snacking” an hour after he finished a meal. Another ate as much as he could hold during the three regular meals and ate snacks in the morning, afternoon and evening. (p. 846). Several men had spells of nausea and vomiting. One man required aspiration and hospitalization for several days. (p. 843) > > During the weekends in particular, some of the men found it difficult to stop eating. Their daily intake commonly ranged between 8,000 and 10,000 calories, and their eating patterns were described as follows: > > > [@](#): > > > > Subject No. 20 stuffs himself until he is bursting at the seams, to the point of being nearly sick and still feels hungry; No. 120 reported that he had to discipline himself to keep from eating so much as to become ill; No. 1 ate until he was uncomfortably full; and subject No. 30 had so little control over the mechanics of “piling it in” that he simply had to stay away from food because he could not find a point of satiation even when he was “full to the gills.”. . .“I ate practically all weekend,” reported subject No. 26. . .Subject No. 26 would just as soon have eaten six meals instead of three. (p. 847) > > After about 5 months of refeeding, the majority of the men reported some normalization of their eating patterns, but for some the extreme overconsumption persisted “No. 108 would eat and eat until he could hardly swallow any more and then he felt like eating half an hour later” (p. 847). More than 8 months after renourishment began, most men had returned to normal eating patterns; however, a few were still eating abnormal amounts “No. 9 ate about 25 percent more than his pre-starvation amount; once he started to reduce but got so hungry he could not stand it” (p. 847). > > Factors distinguishing men who rapidly normalized their eating from those who continued to eat prodigious amounts were not identified. Nevertheless, the main findings here are as follows: Serious binge eating developed in a subgroup of men, and this tendency persisted in come cases for months after free access to food was reintroduced; however, the majority of men reported gradually returning to eating normal amounts of food after about 5 months of refeeding. Thus, the fact that binge eating was experimentally produced in some of these normal young men\*\* should temper speculations about primary psychological disturbances as the cause of binge eating in patients with eating disorders. \*\* > These findings are supported by a large body of research indicating that **habitual dieters display marked overcompensation in eating behavior that is similar to the binge eating observed in eating disorders** > > \*\*Emotional and Personality Changes > \*\* > The experimental procedures involved selecting volunteers who were the most physically and psychologically robust. “\*\*The psychobiological ‘stamina’ of the subjects was unquestionably superior to that likely to be found in any random or more generally representative sample of the population” \*\*(pp. 915-916). > \*\*Although the subjects were psychologically healthy prior to the experiment, most experienced significant emotional deterioration as a result of semistarvation. **Most of the subjects experienced periods during which their emotional distress was quite severe; almost 20% experienced extreme emotional deterioration that markedly interfered with their functioning. \*\* Depression became more severe during the course of the experiment. Elation was observed occasionally, but this was inevitably followed by “low periods.” Mood swings were extreme for some of the volunteers: > One subject experienced a number of periods in which his spirits were definitely high. . . These elated periods alternated with times in which he suffered “a deep dark depression.” (p. 903) > Irritability and frequent outbursts of anger were common, although the men had quite tolerant dispositions prior to starvation. For most subjects, anxiety became more evident. As the experiment progressed, many of the formerly even-tempered men began biting their nails or smoking because they felt nervous. Apathy also became common, and some men who had been quite fastidious neglected various aspects of personal hygiene. During semistarvation, two subjects developed disturbances of “psychotic” proportions.** During the refeeding period, emotional disturbance did not vanish immediately but persisted for several weeks, with some men actually becoming more depressed, irritable, argumentative, and negativistic than they had been during semistarvation. After two weeks of refeeding, one man reported his extreme reaction in his diary: > > > [@](#): > > > > I have been more depressed than ever in my life. . .I thought that there was only one thing that would pull me out of the doldrums, that is release from C.P.S. the experiment I decided to get rid of some fingers. Ten days ago, I jacked up my car and let the car fall on these fingers. . .It was premeditated. (pp. 894-895) > > **Several days latter, this man actually did chop off three fingers of one hand in response to the stress.** > > Standardized personality testing with the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) revealed that semistarvation resulted in significant increases on the Depression, Hysteria, and Hpochondriasis scales. The MMPI profiles for a small minority of subjects confirmed the clinical impression of\*\* incredible deterioration as a result of semistarvation.\*\* One man who scored well within normal limits at initial testing, but after 10 weeks of semistarvation and\*\* a weight loss of only about 4.5 kg (10 pounds, or approximately 7% of his original body weight), gross personality disturbances were evident on the MMPI.\*\* Depression and general disorganization were particularly striking consequences of starvation for several of the men who became the most emotionally disturbed. > > **Social and Sexual Changes** > > The extraordinary impact of semistarvation was reflected in the social changes experienced by most of the volunteers. Although originally quite gregarious, the men became progressively more withdrawn and isolated. Humor and the sense of comradeship diminished amidst growing feelings of social inadequacy… > > \*\* Cognitive and Physical Changes\*\* > > …As the 6 months of semistarvation progressed, the volunteers exhibited many physical changes, including gastrointestinal discomfort; decreased need for sleep; dizziness; headaches; hypersensitivity to noise and light; reduced strength; poor motor control; edema (an excess of fluid causing swelling); hair loss; decreased tolerance for cold temperatures (cold hands and feet); visual disturbances (i.e., inability to focus, eye aches, “spots” in the visual fields); auditory disturbances (i.e., ringing noise in the ears); and paresthesias (i.e., abnormal tingling or prickling sensations, especially in the hands or feet). > > Various changes reflected an overall slowing of the body’s physiological processes. There were decreases in body temperature, heart rate, and respiration, as well as in basal metabolic rate (BMR). BMR is the amount of energy (in calories) that the body requires at rest (i.e., no physical activity) in order to carry out normal physiological processes. It accounts for about two-thirds of the body’s total energy needs, with the remainder being used during physical activity. At the end of semistarvation, the men’s BMRs had dropped by about 40% from normal levels. This drop, as well as other physical changes, reflects the body’s extraordinary ability to adapt to low caloric intake by reducing its need for energy. More recent recent research has shown that metabolic rate is markedly reduced even among dieters who do not have a history of dramatic weight loss (Platte, Wurmser, Wade, Mecheril & Pirke, 1996). During refeeding, Keys et al. found that metabolism speeded up, with those consuming the greatest number of calories experiencing the largest rise in BMR. The group of volunteers who received a relatively small increment in calories during refeeding (400 calories more than during semistarvation) had no rise in BMR for the first 3 weeks. Consuming larger amounts of food caused a sharp increase in the energy burned through metabolic processes. > Significance of the “Starvation Study” > … > The profound effects of starvation also illustrate the tremendous adaptive capacity of the human body and t\*\*he intense biological pressure on the organism to maintain a relatively consistent body weight. \*\*This makes complete evolutionary sense. Over hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution, a major threat to the survival of the organism was starvation. If weight had not been carefully modulated and controlled internally, early humans most certainly would simply have died when food was scarce or when their interest was captured by countless other aspects of living. The Keys et al. “starvation study” illustrates how the human being becomes more oriented toward food when starved and how other pursuits important to the survival of the species (e.g., social and sexual functioning) become subordinate to the primary drive toward food. > > **One of the most notable implications of the Minnesota experiment is that it challenges the popular notion that body weight is easily altered if one simply exercises a bit of “willpower.”** It also demonstrates that the body is not simply “reprogrammed” at a lower set point once weight loss has been achieved. The volunteers’ experimental diet was unsuccessful in overriding their bodies’ strong propensity to defend a particular weight level. Again, it is important to emphasize that following the months of refeeding, the Minnesota volunteers did not skyrocket into obesity. On the average, they gained back their original weight plus about 10%; then, over the next 6 months, their weight gradually declined. By the end of the follow-up period, they were approaching their preexperiment weight levels. > > Providing patients with eating disorders with the above account of the semistarvation study can be very useful in giving them an “explanation” for many of the emotional, cognitive and behavioral symptoms that they experience. This as well as other educational materials (Garner, 1997) is based on the assumption that eating disorder patients often suffer from misconceptions about the factors that cause and then maintain symptoms. It is further assumed that patients may be less likely to persist in self-defeating symptoms if they are made truly aware of the scientific evidence regarding factors that perpetuate eating disorders. The educational approach conveys the message that the responsibility for change rests with the patient; this is aimed at increasing motivation and reducing defensiveness. The operating assumption is that the patient is a responsible and rational partner in a collaborative relationship. And for the record, compulsive overeating is also an eating disorder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-unhappily-report-that-i-am-right-about-obesity-and-diet-very-long/571543.md?page=50)