# I v. Myself Grammar Question. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 6, 2019, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566 "2019-05-06T14:45:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/41 "2019-05-06T23:50:33Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Prince Harry is a father to a healthy boy. His statement to the press was ; > > \*\* “I’m very excited to announce that Meghan and myself had a baby boy this morning, a very healthy baby boy.”\*\* > > I can see the grammar point. “I” before the verb. “Me” after the verb. “Myself” after the verb when there is an “I” before it. > > Still, it sounds odd to me. I presume the Queen keeps the family on their toes regarding the Queen’s English. > > What are your thoughts? My thoughts are the same as that of most others here: it’s a common enough usage, but it ain’t right. “Myself” is a perfectly good and useful word, but that’s not the correct usage of it. It should have been “I”. Or, arguably, “me” might also have worked – see below – but such usage would definitely have brought out a mob of angry prescriptivists brandishing pitchforks! > [@bob\_2](#): > > At least he didn’t say "Meghan and me…🙂 The linguist Steven Pinker once pondered the rhetorical question of why expressions like “Meghan and me” used in the subject case are so very common, and concluded that it’s because it’s not wrong. In the argument about which of “Meghan and me are going to the movies” or “Megan and I are going to the movies” should be considered standard usage, one tends to miss the fact that both “Meghan” and the personal pronoun are singular, yet the conjunction as a whole is treated as plural; that is, the grammatical number of the conjunction doesn’t agree with the singular components inside it. Why then should the grammatical case of the conjunction, which here is clearly the subject case, be presumed to dictate the grammatical case of the pronoun(s) inside it? Pinker concludes that “a conjunction is not grammatically equivalent to any of its parts”. That said, abuses of language like “between you and I” should receive the death penalty, because they’re such obvious and ill-considered hyper-corrections. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/42 "2019-05-07T03:07:53Z")
Thank you all. ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/43 "2019-05-07T04:23:58Z")
“Myself” is a word that is overused. And almost always incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/44 "2019-05-07T04:39:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The linguist Steven Pinker once pondered the rhetorical question…which of “Meghan and me are going to the movies” or “Megan and I are going to the movies” should be considered standard usage… I know that Pinker guy is arrogant, but now he wants to decide how Meg should spell her own name? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/45 "2019-05-07T15:59:02Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Practically all of our non-specialized dictionaries are descriptivist now. I didn’t really believe this, so I checked [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com). Son of a gun, here’s the third definition for [“myself.”](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/myself) > [@still merriam-webster.com](#): > > Informal. (used in place of I or me, especially in compound subjects, objects, and complements): My wife and myself fully agree. She wanted John and myself to take charge. The originators of the plan were my partner and myself. Informal, not the preferred definition, but not wrong. Then I looked at [merriam-webster.com](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myself) > [@](#): > > Definition of myself > 1 : that identical one that is I —used reflexively > I’m going to get myself a new suit > , for emphasis > I myself will go > , or in absolute constructions > myself a tourist, I nevertheless avoided other tourists > 2 : my normal, healthy, or sane condition > didn’t feel myself yesterday No definition as a substitute for “I” or “me.” \*\*\*However * * * > [@still merriam-webster.com](#): > > Myself is often used where I or me might be expected: as subject “to wonder what myself will say” — Emily Dickinson > > \ > > Such uses almost always occur when the speaker or writer is referring to himself or herself as an object of discourse rather than as a participant in discourse. The other reflexive personal pronouns are similarly but less frequently used in the same circumstances. _ **Critics have frowned on these uses since about the turn of the century, probably unaware that they serve a definite purpose. Users themselves are as unaware as the critics—they simply follow their instincts. These uses are standard.** _[emphasis added.] TL;DR It will always grate on my ears, but I surrender. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/46 "2019-05-07T16:02:38Z")
I’ve noted that a lot of people tend to use “myself” when they are unsure between “I” and “me”. In colloquial American (and maybe elsewhere too) with a conjoined subject, you often hear e.g., "Me and Bob are working on the project’ People were taught in school to say “Bob and I are working on the project” but because that seems stilted, but don’t want to make an ‘error’ they will switch to “Bob and myself are …” Interestingly in French, using the object pronoun when the subject is conjoined is correct: Robert et moi travaillons sur le projet ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/47 "2019-05-07T16:11:57Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > In colloquial American (and maybe elsewhere too) with a conjoined subject, you often hear e.g., "Me and Bob are working on the project’ Maybe that used to be true, but for a long time now, I’ve heard “Bob and I” where it’s supposed to be “Bob and me” far more often than the other way around—maybe because people have had it drilled into them that “Me and Bob are working on the project” is wrong, and they get the idea that “Me and Bob” should _always_ be “Bob and I.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/48 "2019-05-07T16:20:37Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I didn’t really believe this, so I checked [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com). Son of a gun, here’s the third definition for [“myself.”](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/myself) Most general-purpose English language dictionaries are primarily descriptivist. I don’t think this is anything that new. At least since I’ve been a kid (80s), dictionaries would try to include informal usages along with formal usages of a word. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/49 "2019-05-07T17:51:57Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Most general-purpose English language dictionaries are primarily descriptivist. I don’t think this is anything that new. At least since I’ve been a kid (80s), dictionaries would try to include informal usages along with formal usages of a word. One landmark was _Webster’s Third New International Dictionary_ (1961), which was so controversial that some labeled it political propaganda. During the 1940s and 50s, people of even modest means didn’t really care to know the right way, the best way to use the language. No, they wanted to use the language in a way that made them appear superior. After all, they weren’t like the poor, the low-class. They each had an image to think about. _Webster’s Third_ turned all that on its ear and legitimized colloquialisms and informal usages. All of a sudden, the language of low-wage workers and hardscrabble farmers was on equal footing with that of the Ivy League–the dictionary said so!–and middle-class America’s head exploded. That began a trend that followed the overall permissiveness of the 60s and 70s and into the me-first notions of the 80s and 90s. Dictionaries no longer told us how to use the language, only how the language was used. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/50 "2019-05-07T18:20:03Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I would be curious to learn whether it’s a relatively new usage and a sign of a shift in English usage or whether it has been pretty common in English historically. I think this thread has already established that it’s a common and correct usage, even if it sounds stilted and grating to some. How far back would you consider “historical”? Here’s a 1934 example from F. Scott Fitzgerald’s _Tender is the Night_: > [@](#): > > “Oh, are you?” exclaimed McKibben. “Why not come with us? It’s a big Packard and there’s only my wife and my children and myself—and the governess—” I’m almost certain I’ve encountered the construct in 19th-century literature as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/51 "2019-05-07T19:16:13Z")
The general rule is if you take the other person out of the sentence and I/me/myself sounds wrong, use whatever one sounds right. Myself is hardly ever needed, but sometimes it does, if I do say so me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/52 "2019-05-07T19:24:20Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > One landmark was _Webster’s Third New International Dictionary_ (1961), which was so controversial that some labeled it political propaganda. > > During the 1940s and 50s, people of even modest means didn’t really care to know the right way, the best way to use the language. No, they wanted to use the language in a way that made them appear superior. After all, they weren’t like the poor, the low-class. They each had an image to think about. > > _Webster’s Third_ turned all that on its ear and legitimized colloquialisms and informal usages. All of a sudden, the language of low-wage workers and hardscrabble farmers was on equal footing with that of the Ivy League–the dictionary said so!–and middle-class America’s head exploded. > > That began a trend that followed the overall permissiveness of the 60s and 70s and into the me-first notions of the 80s and 90s. Dictionaries no longer told us how to use the language, only how the language was used. Thank you for the historical perspective. I actually was curious about when this shift happened, as I grew up with the “dictionaries are descriptive” point of view, but knew that that dictionaries were more prescriptive at one time. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/53 "2019-05-07T19:44:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Thank you for the historical perspective. I actually was curious about when this shift happened, as I grew up with the “dictionaries are descriptive” point of view, but knew that that dictionaries were more prescriptive at one time. More curiously, _Webster’s Third_ generated the most backlash from users of _Webster’s Second_. Among the academics and intellectuals (and those who wanted to be thought of as such), the second was almost a holy grail for how American English was supposed to be used. I don’t have either handy at the moment, so I’m going from memory on this, but the second denoted some usages as _colloquial_, just like other dictionaries have done, but those markings were treated at the time much like trigger warnings are today. One simply didn’t use the words that way. The third bulldozed that whole concept. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/54 "2019-05-07T20:31:44Z")
Oddly enough, there is a 1966 edition of _Webster’s New World Dictionary of the American Language (College edition)_ on my bookshelf. It does not list an informal definition of “myself” as “I.” Remember of course, that “Webster’s” is not trademarkable and any publisher is free to title a book something like _Webster’s Illustrated Pocket Dictionary of Obscenity_ and the only entity that could object would be a publisher who previously used that title. I myself (an\* intensifier\*) remember arguing with my father around that same time - we were arguing over Kirk’s opening narration on _Star Trek_ - that the rules about splitting infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions were archaic vestiges left over from Latin and that English is not Latin. And I had an extremely traditional Catholic school education! But Prince Harry’s statement still grates on my ears. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/55 "2019-05-07T20:51:10Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > we were arguing over Kirk’s opening narration on _Star Trek_ - that the rules about splitting infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions were archaic vestiges left over from Latin and that English is not Latin. Not even that. It was an effort to impose Latin rules on a Germanic language. Though, to be fair, you couldn’t split infinitives in most Germanic tongues, either. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/56 "2019-05-08T10:21:45Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I would be curious to learn whether it’s a relatively new usage and a sign of a shift in English usage or whether it has been pretty common in English historically. I did some more digging just now and see that the use of “myself” as a substitute for the nominative “I” is covered by the _Oxford English Dictionary_. They claim it came into being “by ellipsis of _I, myself_” and give plenty of examples, many from very well-known and -respected writers (Chaucer, Shakespeare, Fitzgerald, Browning, etc.), from every century from the 14th to the 19th. So I think that definitively answers your question about whether the usage is new: no, people have been using “myself” this way for at least 600 years. Incidentally, the use of “myself” as a (non-reflexive) object rather than a subject goes back even farther (to at least 1205), having been employed by a similarly illustrious list of authors (Dunbar, Shakespeare, Burns, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/57 "2019-05-08T10:30:23Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Not even that. It was an effort to impose Latin rules on a Germanic language. Though, to be fair, you couldn’t split infinitives in most Germanic tongues, either. Which tongues would those be? In all the Germanic languages I’m familiar with, a preposition-like marker (_to_ in English, _zu_ in German, _te_ in Dutch, _at_ in Danish, _að_ in Icelandic) needs to come before the infinitive in at least _some_ (albeit very common) constructions. So at least in those languages it should be possible (even if not strictly permissible) to split infinitives. I’d be interested to know which Germanic languages don’t have infinitives like this. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/58 "2019-05-08T18:16:24Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Which tongues would those be? In all the Germanic languages I’m familiar with, a preposition-like marker (_to_ in English, _zu_ in German, _te_ in Dutch, _at_ in Danish, _að_ in Icelandic) needs to come before the infinitive in at least _some_ (albeit very common) constructions. So at least in those languages it should be possible (even if not strictly permissible) to split infinitives. I’d be interested to know which Germanic languages don’t have infinitives like this. I was referring to the old Germanic tongues. My understanding is that the modern to+verb construction began as a prepositional phrase around Anglo-Saxon times. Before that, infinitives were one word and could not be split. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/59 "2019-05-09T00:40:06Z")
Although I would have used “I”, it doesn’t follow that “myself” is wrong. There is no god-given grammar of English that can decide such questions. But I came here to say that my late colleague attempted to write a simplified production grammar for a fragment of English. He disn’t entirely succeed. One of his biggest problems was caused by the word “and” since it could coordinate two nouns, two verbs, two adjectives, adverbs, prepositions (“by and for”), or two sentences. The problem is that until you know what is being coordinating, you cannot discern the proper grammar. He fanned on being able to generate the simple clause “between you and me” since the “me” was not directly preceded by either a verb or a preposition. In the end it would generate “between you and I”. And that was his explanation for why so many people use the latter phrase. And “Meghan and myself” could be a similar phenomenon, although the “myself” does directly precede the verb. But it does explain why “I and Meghan had” is utterly impossible, while “me and Meghan” although obviously déclassé, seems perfectly natural. ---
**Author:** ![Patx2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/73ab20/32.png) [@Patx2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patx2)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566/60 "2019-05-11T21:00:30Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > That’s not the rule. The rule is to use “I” as the subject of a verb, and “me” as an object. “Myself” is reflexive, and is used when the person speaking is both the subject and the object of the verb, or for emphasis. “I had to restrain myself,” or “I myself did it.” > > In the sentence in question, Meghan and Harry are the subject of the verb “had,” so it should be “I.” “Myself” there is just grammatically wrong. > > Although it comes after the verb “announce,” it is not the object of the verb (and if it were, it should be “Meghan and me.”). It is part of a separate prepositional clause with its own subject(s) and object (“a baby”). Nailed it. This is an excellent explanation of proper usage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-v-myself-grammar-question/833566.md?page=4)