# I wanna shoot a tranger **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 18, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456 "2006-01-18T02:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/21 "2006-01-18T06:02:59Z")
> [@Stranger on a Train](#): > > For interior use, I’d use #3 or #4 shot in a 2-3/4" shell, That’s my choice. 12 ga., 2-3/4 inch shell, #4 shot. Lethal at interior distances, with minimal wall penetration. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/22 "2006-01-18T06:11:17Z")
> [@Large Marge](#): > > I’ve heard the opposite: that a shotgun is NOT a good defense weapon because it is far too easy to grab the barrel and take the weapon away, especially if the victim hesitates to fire as the attacker moves toward them. That could be said about any gun. If you’re not prepared to use it, you’re better off without it, which requires considering ahead of time how and when you’d be prepared to use it. When wielding any gun, you should keep the target _no less than_ a leg’s length away…preferably across the room. It’s true that a shotgun is somewhat more difficult to maneuver, but as a defender you’re not going to be clearing rooms (typicially) but rather holding a perpetrator at bay while waiting for police response. And a longarm requires significantly less initial and ongoing training to develop competence. A handgun, on the other hand, requires regular–as in monthly–drills to maintain a level of mastery. For the “casual” gun owner, a shotgun is the better choice. Personally, I’d be a lot more adverse to challenging someone while looking down the massive barrel of a shotgun than the comparatively diminutive barrel of a pistol. Not that a .357 Magnum or .45 ACP is anything to sneer dismissively at, but anyone who challenges a shotgun clearly either has a deathwish or has a crack habit that Marion Barry could envy. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/23 "2006-01-18T06:17:29Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > Wrong. Buckshot is not “large slugs”. 00 buck is [less than 9mm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckshot#Buckshot) and will have a much slower velocity than a bullet. Most walls would probably stop it. > > 00 or 000 buckshot is pretty much what you are looking for for home defense. I’ll admit I used an imprecise term in “slug” - this term should only be used to refer to a solid projectile fired from a shotgun. Although, in my defense, when I was growing up we always referred to buckshot “pellets” as “slugs” in order to differentiate them from regular “shot.” (And we used to load our own shells - what can I say? Childhood on a farm). I called them large slugs because (in comparison to birdshot pellets) they are huge. But I would disagree that buckshot will be stopped by most walls. From [here:](http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Projectile,,00.html) > [@](#): > > In this simulation, a standard 12 gauge load of 00 buckshot is being fired toward a house from a range of 30 feet. The buckshot penetrated a solid wood privacy fence, an exterior wall with vinyl siding, and two interior walls and still maintained lethal energy. I know, it’s kind of a shady cite, but honestly - googling around for this stuff all the links are like Soldier of Fortune or [killintrudershomedefense.com](http://killintrudershomedefense.com). Ah well, we do what we can. Moreover, I would disagree that buckshot’s velocity would be appreciably slower than a bullet. First of all, it’s definately going to depend on your powder load. Second of all, it’s always been my understanding that most buckshot loads have comparable muzzle velocity to most bullets fired from handguns. I would appreciate a cite (even one to the contrary) because I can’t seem to find a clear answer. Seems to me like they’re both going to be around 1000 fps. I will allow, however, that buckshot (based on its shape) is going to have less penetration into anything than a bullet. Now, googling around, I found several websites that advocate using buckshot like **Aanamika** or **CynicalGabe**. Call me crazy, but I have people and dogs in my home that I don’t want to lose to friendly fire. I’d be more comfortable with birdshot. > [@Aanamika](#): > > I always agree when it comes to guns. So that means that you’re back in my corner now, eh? 😃 - Peter Wiggen ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/24 "2006-01-18T06:25:40Z")
> [@Ringo](#): > > Recent readjustments in my life have lead me to decide that I should add a firearm to my homebound personal security arrangements. > > I mentioned my concern to a few friends a couple of weeks ago and one soon showed up with a bag of guns for me to try holding. Upon that inspection I decided that the .38 Special and the 1911 .45 were my favorites. This is wonderful, actually taking the time to try out many different types and styles is important to find a gun that has the best feel for you. > [@](#): > > I was consistently 8 out of 8 with the .45, and every other gun was less. I did, though, notice that the weight of the gun made a huge difference. Lighter guns were harder for me to get on target. While I scored my only bullseye with the .22 Magnum, that was a fluke shot and I found the gun too small to really point and shoot with any idea where the bullet was going. Revolvers and semi’s have a very different grip and feel, go with what feels best and seems to work naturally for you without alot of adjusting and positioning. > [@](#): > > My Gunner friend recommended a .410 shotgun as the best home defense. I appreciate his reasoning, but questions of concealability, accessibility and manueverability make me think something along the lines of the 1911 .45 might be the superior choice. If you are going shotgun, get a 12GA, you’re only going to get 1-2 shots, make them count. Handgun wise, if the 1911 feels right, go with it. I personally am a big fan of 9mm. The bigger guns are alot more difficult to contol under pressure and or multiple shot situations. I shot IPSC matches with a Beretta 92FS and or a Glock 19, both are quite nimble and easy to recover from recoil for second shots and target switching as well as both being very good quality guns. I know they lack the knockdown power of the big boys but I also know that if I open up on someone I am going to do my best to make a hail of lead at whomever is in my house and something is going to connect unless he gets me first. I was never comfortable rapidfiring a .45, so 9mm for me. Also to the parade of “slide racking” to scare people, giving your location away is tactically retarded and lets the person in question choose to prepare for an armed encounter if he is willing to go there. If someone is willing to enter my home, with my car in the driveway, and possibly cross paths with my family, I am not going to give the chance to fall back and dive into a kids room and take a hostage or something like that. If its time for lethal force, bring it and use it, don’t dick around with it. Ideally the only noise an intruder in my home will hear is the gunshot that ends its life, of course s/he probably won’t live long enough to realize what that bang was. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/25 "2006-01-18T06:53:48Z")
> [@cerebrus](#): > > [D]on’t empty the magazine into the bad guy. This is not really good advice; you shoot until your aggressor is down. If that means emptying an entire magazine into him, by all means do it. Handguns do not incapacitate quickly, and you don’t want him to keep coming. That said, don’t continue shooting him after he falls. The police and jury will really frown on you “finishing off” a human being. Read this if you want to understand how handgun bullets cause incapacitation: [Wounding factors](http://www.gunthorp.com/wounding_factors.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/26 "2006-01-18T07:13:39Z")
> [@Mr. Krebbs](#): > > This is not really good advice; you shoot until your aggressor is down. If that means emptying an entire magazine into him, by all means do it. Handguns do not incapacitate quickly, and you don’t want him to keep coming. > > That said, don’t continue shooting him after he falls. The police and jury will really frown on you “finishing off” a human being. There’s also the fact that you don’t want to be out of bullets when his buddy jumps out from behind the couch. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/27 "2006-01-18T07:14:00Z")
> [@PeterWiggen](#): > > But I would disagree that buckshot will be stopped by most walls. From [here:](http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Projectile,,00.html) > > I know, it’s kind of a shady cite, but honestly - googling around for this stuff all the links are like Soldier of Fortune or [killintrudershomedefense.com](http://killintrudershomedefense.com). Ah well, we do what we can. > > - Peter Wiggen I totally understand the concern regarding over-penetration, and agree that any possible steps to prevent it should be taken. I myself use [Glasers](http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.php?uid=12665&page=1981) in my 1911. But I have to call bullshit on that claim that 00 buck would go through a gallon of water, a wood fence, vinyl siding and 2 interior walls (4 layers of sheetrock) and still be lethal upon exiting. Given that 00 buck has a maximum range of [750 yards](http://homestudy.ihea.com/ammo/15shotsize.htm) in open air (given proper elevation of the barrel), I find it almost impossible to believe that claim. expecially the gallon of water part. Most pistol and rifle rounds travel only a few (less than 10) feet through water before losing all their energy. A 38 Special round will go about [20 inches](http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm) in water. The shot might very well make it through a 1 gallon container, but there is no way it would penetrate that much. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/28 "2006-01-18T07:25:34Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > There’s also the fact that you don’t want to be out of bullets when his buddy jumps out from behind the couch. Obviously, you hope you don’t have to empty a magazine into one guy. Nevertheless, if you have multiple adversaries and only a handgun (especially a true 1911, which only has a useful magazine capacity of seven to eight rounds), you’re in a world of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/29 "2006-01-18T07:29:48Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > I totally understand the concern regarding over-penetration, and agree that any possible steps to prevent it should be taken. I myself use [Glasers](http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.php?uid=12665&page=1981) in my 1911. But I have to call bullshit on that claim that 00 buck would go through a gallon of water, a wood fence, vinyl siding and 2 interior walls (4 layers of sheetrock) and still be lethal upon exiting. > > Given that 00 buck has a maximum range of [750 yards](http://homestudy.ihea.com/ammo/15shotsize.htm) in open air (given proper elevation of the barrel), I find it almost impossible to believe that claim. expecially the gallon of water part. Most pistol and rifle rounds travel only a few (less than 10) feet through water before losing all their energy. A 38 Special round will go about [20 inches](http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm) in water. The shot might very well make it through a 1 gallon container, but there is no way it would penetrate that much. Yeah, I’ve seen that Mythbusters where they test out the guns into the water. I can agree with your suspicion there. But I think my dubiousness towards the stopping power of walls is still warranted. In my apartment a hard-spat spitball could probably bust through to my neighbors’ place - I think that 00 buck (which can travel 750 yards in open air) is not going to have much trouble popping through there and hitting somebody with lethal force. I just seems logical to me that (assuming you are going to use a shotgun for home protection) - in tight quarters, where you will be shooting an intruder at a relatively short distance - birdshot will (a) be sufficient to incapacite an intruder, and (b) provide the best protection against others from being inadvertently shot. Thoughts? (Oh, and BTW - those Glasers are freaking cool. I had never heard of them before!) - Peter Wiggen ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Krebbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mr.Krebbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Krebbs)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/30 "2006-01-18T07:40:30Z")
> [@PeterWiggen](#): > > I just seems logical to me that (assuming you are going to use a shotgun for home protection) - in tight quarters, where you will be shooting an intruder at a relatively short distance - birdshot will (a) be sufficient to incapacite an intruder, and (b) provide the best protection against others from being inadvertently shot. > > Thoughts? I have read that bird and trap shot is generally just as effective as buck at hallway distances and so forth. I trust #4 buck as my personal load, however, and really don’t plan on changing it. If you read the FBI report that I linked to previously, it explains how important penetration is to incapacitate a human target, and frankly, I want a little bit more oomph behind my personal defense load than birdshot is going to deliver. If you’re really worried about penetration, consider using an AR-15 as your home defense weapon (yes, seriously). Load it with 45 gr Hornady TAP and testing indicates that you get less over-penetration in .223 than you would with a 9x19, as well as a thirty round magazine to boot. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/31 "2006-01-18T07:46:11Z")
> [@PeterWiggen](#): > > I just seems logical to me that (assuming you are going to use a shotgun for home protection) - in tight quarters, where you will be shooting an intruder at a relatively short distance - birdshot will (a) be sufficient to incapacite an intruder, and (b) provide the best protection against others from being inadvertently shot. > > Thoughts? I agree that #4 shot or something similar would be sufficient at close range (bedroom to bathroom, etc) and you could be sure that it wouldnt go through 5 walls or something. Although I still maintain that the Polyshok page you linked to is bullshit. 🙂 Remember: They are trying to sell you their alternative. > [@](#): > > (Oh, and BTW - those Glasers are freaking cool. I had never heard of them before!) > > - Peter Wiggen I hope they work as advertised. They cost about $3 a round :mad: . That FBI report that was linked to (Thanks **Mr. Krebbs** that was an excellent link!) expressed some doubts about them. > [@Mr. Krebbs](#): > > If you’re really worried about penetration, consider using an AR-15 as your home defense weapon (yes, seriously). Load it with 45 gr Hornady TAP and testing indicates that you get less over-penetration in .223 than you would with a 9x19, as well as a thirty round magazine to boot. Some of us live in California. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/32 "2006-01-18T09:30:13Z")
- - - Revolver, 357, 6" barrel. Easy to operate in a panic (only one control), reliable (won’t stovepipe). …And a _flashlight_, for your other hand. Which is why you don’t want any rifles or shotguns. ~ ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/33 "2006-01-18T09:46:37Z")
I’d recommend a SIG-Sauer P226 or P228 for a hand gun. I used a SIG-P228 for several years professionally and liked it enough that I have one that rests within arm’s reach from where I sleep. The P226 is pretty similar with the P228, the P228 being more compact and there aren’t a huge number of variations of the P228 as there are with the P226. It’s a 9mm round and has for many years been the mainstay for Federal law enforcement, although law enforcement in general is switching to heavier rounds (.40 cal and such.) Personally I like the 9mm round because you get incredible accuracy, it is incredibly easy to control, there’s hardly any recoil et cetera. Can I fire a heavy-caliber hand gun effectively? Yes, and I have heavy-caliber hand guns that I fire on occasion out at the range. However I feel that if I’m in a situation where I need to jump up in my birthday suit and deal with a sudden and surprising situation I want accuracy and stability especially since the chances of me needing to shoot through body armor is fairly low in that sort of situation. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/34 "2006-01-18T09:50:36Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > Some of us live in California. :mad: They make a California-compliant AR-15. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/35 "2006-01-18T10:21:43Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > They make a California-compliant AR-15. Yeah, with a 10-round fixed magazine. 😛 to that. Plus, it’s $800. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/36 "2006-01-18T13:59:51Z")
Just once, in one of these home defense threads, I’d like to see the discussion conclude without somebody repeating that bullshit about the “intimidating” sound a pump shotgun makes when you rack the slide. It’s poor tactics on so many levels that the mind boggles at the thought of it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/37 "2006-01-18T14:00:04Z")
Take a good long look at this site,[The Box O’ Truth > [@](#): > > The purpose of the Box is to test the penetration of various rounds. > There is only one way to know how much a certain round penetrates. > You must shoot it into a medium and see for a fact. ]([http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm](http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm)) ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/38 "2006-01-18T14:34:15Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Just once, in one of these home defense threads, I’d like to see the discussion conclude without somebody repeating that bullshit about the “intimidating” sound a pump shotgun makes when you rack the slide. It’s poor tactics on so many levels that the mind boggles at the thought of it. I think it depends on circumstances. I don’t have children and I’m home alone during the day, so I might well try to avoid shooting someone first thing if a) they had enough distance from me that I had time to make a decision one way or another, and b) I had some reason to believe just pointing the gun would be sufficient. Or maybe I’d just shoot and not worry about it. I hope I never have to find out. And the reason for this belief is because movies use the racking the slide sound to increase the tension of the scene, most of the time by completely ignoring the fact that most of the people in that scene would already have shells in the chamber\*. Strangely, the characters don’t lose ammo on the ground every time they do that. I do hope that anyone who uses a pump-action shotgun or a semi-automatic handgun or rifle realizes the purpose of racking the slide. \*For an especially egregious use of this, watch the movie, \*Stargate. \*That stupid sound effect happens every time you see a gun, even when the soldier holding it hasn’t even moved his hands. Each of those elite military commandos would’ve ejected a clip’s worth of ammo on the ground as much as it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/39 "2006-01-18T14:37:50Z")
I gotta ask…is this a “permanent” need for protection or just a temporary reaction to someone who’s pissed off at you? ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Smith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@Winston\_Smith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Smith)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456/40 "2006-01-18T15:26:14Z")
Here’s some sage advice given to me years ago by the man who conducted my firearms safety course (pre-requ for LTC): Get yourself a double barrell shotgun, load chamber 1 with rock salt, chamber 2 with bird shot, and keep some buck shot handy for quick reloading. There are some obvious advantages to this- firing a shotgun does not take a lot of skill or accuracy, and the rock salt is non-lethal, but in most cases will incapacitate an intruder. If the intruder is high on angle dust or something, and the rock salt doesn’t stop them, you still have the birdshot in the second barrell. In the unlikely event the intruder is still not incapacitated after the bird shot spray, you will without a doubt have time to load your buck shot, as well as a moment to ponder your options. The same man that gave me the above advice also passed along this nugget of wisdom: If you shoot shoot and kill someone, _ **regardless of the circumstances, you will do time in prison** _. The circumstances of the shooting, your character, and your previous record will dictate how much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-wanna-shoot-a-tranger/340456.md?page=3)