# i want abolish the mathematics in the school **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 3, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774 "2011-11-03T19:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![y7xzh1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e9c0ed/32.png) [@y7xzh1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/y7xzh1)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/1 "2011-11-03T19:54:38Z")
you know the olympic mathematics? something math contest from russian. be a importation in china for 20 more years. school child which is under 12 learn those hard mathematical problem for enter good middle school . i hate it but it is not reason why i want terminate the mathematics in school actually i want all the mathematics knowledge into physics and chemistry all of it ,be a combination.i mean there is no mathematics any more,the math-physic and math with chemistry instead of independent mathematics .why not? is it feasible?is it good for university learning?is it save time for student? is it efficiency?is it good for society? because i think mathematic were born late than physics and chemistry,and triggered by physics and chemistry. i am talk with my chinese buddies,they all opposed,and attack me … they all angry what do you think ?is it infeasible?unreasonable? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/2 "2011-11-03T20:01:54Z")
I do big favor and report thread for move to appropriate forum. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/3 "2011-11-03T20:17:38Z")
> [@y7xzh1](#): > > because i think mathematic were born late than physics and chemistry,and triggered by physics and chemistry. Not true at all. Math came first. The most ancient of human civilizations, in Egypt, mesopotamia, and I am sure, early Chinese civilization too, had a quite sophisticated knowledge of mathematics. The mesopotamians did use it in their astronomy, but for the Egyptians, their math was mainly used for land management. A little bit later the ancient Greeks also applied geometry to optics and, to a limited degree, to mechanics (mostly just by Archimedes), but math was not applied extensively to physics or chemistry until the European scientific revolution of the 17th (for physics) and 18th (for chemistry) centuries, about two thousand years later. Even today, mathematics has lots of practical uses apart from in the sciences: in finance, for example. ---
**Author:** ![TerpBE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc8723/32.png) [@TerpBE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TerpBE)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/4 "2011-11-03T20:30:40Z")
Addition by subtraction…interesting. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/5 "2011-11-03T20:31:58Z")
What you’re asking is like attempting to teach literature without first learning to read. Mathematics is its own intellectual discipline. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/6 "2011-11-03T20:32:08Z")
[moderating] Thread moved to IMHO. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/7 "2011-11-03T20:34:49Z")
As a discipline, mathematics predates the inception of natural sciences (chemistry, physics, geology, et cetera) by quite a margin. Mathematics in a formal sense is generally held to have began in about the 5th Century BCE with Thales of Miletus, whereas modern chemistry as a science (distinct from the art of alchemy) is considered to have begun with the publication of _The Sceptical Chymist_ by Robert Boyle in the 1661 CE, and physics as a distinct discipline from empirical mechanics and observational astronomy starts with the publication of _Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica_ by Isaac Newton in 1687. As for the rest of your argument, it is clear that English is not your first language so I’m not sure that your intent came across clearly, but it seemed to be in essense that mathematics should be taught as an applied discipline rather than as a series of methods and principles by themselves, e.g. algebra, plane geometry, trignometry, analytical geometry, calculus. The problem with this is that this is like learning to read without learning grammar. As a practical manner, students do often end up learning some mathematic principles in the applied context–I was first introduced to the concepts of differential calculus and differential equations in the mechanics of pulleys–but it would be nearly impossible to through students into physics without a basic grasp of the ‘grammar’ of algebra or an essential understanding of trigonometry. The “new math” of the 'Sixties and 'Seventies was an attempt to teach math in an applied, rather than abstract, format; but because of a number of conceptual flaws in the provided context and a lack of training of teachers on how to appropriately present the information it was widely regarded as a failure (though it had no discernable impact, positive or negative, on students going on to study higher mathematics). Math needs to be studied on its own in order to learn the ‘grammar’ that is then used to describe physical mechanics. It also deserves to be studied as a field onto itself, for the pure beauty of it. Many of the fields of supposed abstract mathematics have turned out to be extremely useful in science and engineering, such as complex and quarternion algebra, graph and group theory, computation theory, et cetera. Understanding math, versus understanding just enough math to be able to chug’n’plug through a problem is key at being able to use math to understand problems rather than just number crunch. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/8 "2011-11-03T20:37:05Z")
First, as **njtt** said, mathematics predates physics and chemistry. Second, mathematics is used in MANY areas unrelated to physics or chemistry. Architects (roof pitch), woodworkers (mitre angles), chefs (recipe adjustments), computer analysts, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers… ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/9 "2011-11-03T20:48:40Z")
Your Chinese buddies were right to oppose you. If you only learned applied mathematics, you may lack the knowledge required to carry over mathematic concepts from one field to another. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/10 "2011-11-03T20:50:26Z")
English is also a worthwhile subject. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/11 "2011-11-03T20:59:00Z")
I find that the OP makes a lot more sense if you imagine someone playing bongo drums in the background. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/12 "2011-11-03T22:17:00Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > English is also a worthwhile subject. > [@Smapti](#): > > I find that the OP makes a lot more sense if you imagine someone playing bongo drums in the background. Let me help you with some [perspective](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=628295). ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/13 "2011-11-03T22:32:46Z")
Thanks, **Y. Rex**. I hope that heads off some of the inevitable grammar nazi posts. Forced math contests sound like my personal idea of hell, but I don’t think we should abolish teaching it entirely, either. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/14 "2011-11-03T22:46:28Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Forced math contests sound like my personal idea of hell, but I don’t think we should abolish teaching it entirely, either. I couldn’t tell from the OP whether or not they were manditory for everyone in China. If they are, then okay, go ahead and complain. But to have contests in mathematical problem solving, for kids who enjoy and are good at that sort of thing, is every bit as appropriate as having sports tournaments, music competitions, etc. for kids who are good at and enjoy _those_ kinds of activities. Like other human activities, mathematics need not be a means to an end. It can be an end in itself, an activity that is pursued for its own sake, for its own inherent beauty and appeal and enjoyment. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/15 "2011-11-03T22:58:32Z")
You have to learn to crawl before you walk, and learn to walk before you run. That means you learn individual words in a foreign language before you start learning phrases and making simple sentences. Once you have a grasp on that, you build up to paragraphs and conversations, then stories, whole books, etc. Then, once you really understand that, you can start worrying about themes and literary devices and such. Math is the same way. You learn to count, then you start tacking on basic arithmetical operations one at a time. Once you have a firm grasp on those, you can start applying them to practical stuff and learning more complicated math concepts. Asking someone who hasn’t had a firm grounding in basic math to do the calculations of even basic chemistry and physics is like asking you to read a novel in English and discuss its literary merits. Besides, if you’re only going to teach math as a sub-section of science classes, you’re either going to have to teach first-graders stoichiometry, or not teach kids to count/add/subtract until they’re much older. I just don’t see it being at all practical. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/16 "2011-11-04T03:59:18Z")
Proficiency in mathematics is a prerequisite to its successful application. Having said that, physics and engineering are and werenbig drivers of the development of things like calculus, differential equations and the like. But the stuff should, at least at the university level, be taught on its own merits. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/17 "2011-11-04T07:25:06Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Forced math contests sound like my personal idea of hell So…you didn’t have them? We did, several times a year in both elementary and middle school. They were a great way to show everyone in class just how much you suck at math, so some of us looked forward to them much less than others did ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/18 "2011-11-04T07:40:26Z")
Maths in abstract or discrete form is necessary because sometimes the mathematics innovation precedes and provokes the practical applications. Cryptography, for example, is a topic where the maths typically comes before tgecapplication. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/19 "2011-11-04T07:47:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I find that the OP makes a lot more sense if you imagine someone playing bongo drums in the background. I know the OP is Chinese and his English is pretty rudimentary, but still, that’s funny. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/20 "2011-11-04T09:33:18Z")
For a moment there I thought the OP might have been talking about the [International Maths Olympics](http://www.imo-official.org/), but that’s got nothing to do with school entry, it’s for high school students. It is way cool though. I wonder if we’ve got anyone on the Dope who was in a team? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774.md?page=2)