# i want abolish the mathematics in the school **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 3, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774 "2011-11-03T19:54:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/21 "2011-11-04T09:37:10Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > English is also a worthwhile subject. OP fail english? thats unpossible! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/22 "2011-11-04T12:11:30Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > For a moment there I thought the OP might have been talking about the [International Maths Olympics](http://www.imo-official.org/), but that’s got nothing to do with school entry, it’s for high school students. > > It is way cool though. I wonder if we’ve got anyone on the Dope who was in a team? A little googling shows that there are indeed [Math Olympiads](http://www.moems.org/index.htm) for elementary and middle school students. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/23 "2011-11-04T13:15:54Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > So…you didn’t have them? We did, several times a year in both elementary and middle school. They were a great way to show everyone in class just how much you suck at math, so some of us looked forward to them much less than others did ☹ You mean like gym class is a great way to show everyone in the class how much you suck at whatever sport they’re playing that day? At least your math contests weren’t two to three times a week, every week. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/24 "2011-11-04T16:38:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > OP fail english? thats unpossible! Check post 12. Basically, OP is Chinese and is teaching himself English on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/25 "2011-11-04T17:26:42Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > As a discipline, mathematics predates the inception of natural sciences (chemistry, physics, geology, et cetera) by quite a margin. Mathematics in a formal sense is generally held to have began in about the 5th Century BCE with Thales of Miletus, whereas modern chemistry as a science (distinct from the art of alchemy) is considered to have begun with the publication of _The Sceptical Chymist_ by Robert Boyle in the 1661 CE, and physics as a distinct discipline from empirical mechanics and observational astronomy starts with the publication of _Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica_ by Isaac Newton in 1687. > > As for the rest of your argument, it is clear that English is not your first language so I’m not sure that your intent came across clearly, but it seemed to be in essense that mathematics should be taught as an applied discipline rather than as a series of methods and principles by themselves, e.g. algebra, plane geometry, trignometry, analytical geometry, calculus. The problem with this is that this is like learning to read without learning grammar. As a practical manner, students do often end up learning some mathematic principles in the applied context–I was first introduced to the concepts of differential calculus and differential equations in the mechanics of pulleys–but it would be nearly impossible to through students into physics without a basic grasp of the ‘grammar’ of algebra or an essential understanding of trigonometry. The “new math” of the 'Sixties and 'Seventies was an attempt to teach math in an applied, rather than abstract, format; but because of a number of conceptual flaws in the provided context and a lack of training of teachers on how to appropriately present the information it was widely regarded as a failure (though it had no discernable impact, positive or negative, on students going on to study higher mathematics). > > Math needs to be studied on its own in order to learn the ‘grammar’ that is then used to describe physical mechanics. It also deserves to be studied as a field onto itself, for the pure beauty of it. Many of the fields of supposed abstract mathematics have turned out to be extremely useful in science and engineering, such as complex and quarternion algebra, graph and group theory, computation theory, et cetera. Understanding math, versus understanding just enough math to be able to chug’n’plug through a problem is key at being able to use math to understand problems rather than just number crunch. > > Stranger Just a note to say thanks - I always enjoy this type of expert-based context setting, and look for yours in particular. After reading James Gleick’s The Information, it seems that there is an argument made for Information Theory to be the fundamental science at the heart of the universe, either alongside or even supplanting physics. See [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=604563)for a thread I started trying to explore this a bit. And since Information Theory is expressed mathematically - just like physics and every other science - I can’t imagine how math isn’t thought of as simply another language we have to learn, alongside our spoken and written languages, body language, etc. Math is just a form of communication with a focused purpose, right? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/26 "2011-11-04T19:15:09Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > You mean like gym class is a great way to show everyone in the class how much you suck at whatever sport they’re playing that day? At least your math contests weren’t two to three times a week, every week. Ha. You say that like you think gym class was any better for me. As the smallest kid in class, who was also a clumsy lefty, gym was no fun either. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/27 "2011-11-04T19:28:32Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Check post 12. Basically, OP is Chinese and is teaching himself English on the internet. If you follow this link, you’ll see a very heartfelt OP about this from **y7xzh1** , the OP of this thread. Just a gentle reminder to practice some tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Cryptic\_C62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cryptic\_C62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptic_C62)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/28 "2011-11-04T20:14:27Z")
I’m currently studying mathematics, and I’ve taken a couple computer science courses for fun. One of my CompSci professors mentioned that he was a Math/CompSci dual major when he was an undergrad. I asked him if he thought the math component was helpful for him. He said yes, but not because he actually _used_ linear algebra or group theory in his work, but because the abstract math trained him to think about problems and numbers in different ways. He referred to math as “mental weightlifting”, and I really liked that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/29 "2011-11-04T20:22:50Z")
The OP’s English is much better than my Chinese and probably everyone else’s in this thread. I feel mathematics is best taught as a separate course. The basics of mathematics are used in physics, chemistry, and other sciences. It makes more sense to learn these mathematics basics in a single course rather than learn it in several different science courses. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/30 "2011-11-04T20:25:11Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > You mean like gym class is a great way to show everyone in the class how much you suck at whatever sport they’re playing that day? At least your math contests weren’t two to three times a week, every week. You also don’t have to do your math problems while wearing shorts. The OP’s English is much better than my Chinese, but I want to get a hold of his random user name generator. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/31 "2011-11-04T22:38:12Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > If you follow this link, you’ll see a very heartfelt OP about this from **y7xzh1** , the OP of this thread. Just a gentle reminder to practice some tolerance. Uh, OK. I know that - it’s why I referred the other poster to post 12: to draw attention to the thread in question. If I’ve offended anyone, sincere apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/32 "2011-11-04T23:25:12Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Uh, OK. I know that - it’s why I referred the other poster to post 12: to draw attention to the thread in question. > > If I’ve offended anyone, sincere apologies. I don’t think **Ellen** was pointing that statement at you; she probably picked the wrong quote (yours instead of mine). What the OP has been doing here on the Dope is pretty ambitious and I applaud that, and I hope we can encourage further postings from him/her. There are times when posts should be picked apart for lack of readability, but this is clearly an exception…from two of the hardest languages to learn, the OP is actually doing something a little extraordinary. If I had to learn Mandarin or Cantonese ,I wouldn’t even know where to start let alone know what would be a good starting place to learn symbols and their pronunciations. As for forced math competitions, wouldn’t your typical math test be a forced competition itself (for grades)? I too have participated in math contests beyond your typical math test in class, especially in junior high and some college level contests. I am guessing that the OP is not happy with China’s method to find their most proficient math students and maybe forcibly steer them into scientific-based professions, even if they don’t want to follow that type of career path. Is that what you are trying to tell us,\*\* y7xzh1\*\*? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/33 "2011-11-05T02:20:41Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > I don’t think **Ellen** was pointing that statement at you; she probably picked the wrong quote (yours instead of mine). What the OP has been doing here on the Dope is pretty ambitious and I applaud that, and I hope we can encourage further postings from him/her. There are times when posts should be picked apart for lack of readability, but this is clearly an exception…from two of the hardest languages to learn, the OP is actually doing something a little extraordinary. If I had to learn Mandarin or Cantonese ,I wouldn’t even know where to start let alone know what would be a good starting place to learn symbols and their pronunciations. Ah, OK, that makes sense. And I agree with your general sentiments regarding what the OP is trying to do here. In terms of the maths, I suppose this is not my field in any way, shape or form. It does strike me that it may be impractical to teach all the physics-related maths in physics class, the chemistry-related maths in chemistry class and so on. I mean, surely there is significant overlap in the basic skills required, even if the actual calculations to be performed are different. Or is there a physicist’s way to do maths and a chemist’s way to do maths? I haven’t formally studied any of these subjects beyond high school, so my opinion is worth exactly what it cost you. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/34 "2011-11-05T13:16:51Z")
Yes, Paul – I wasn’t fussing at you! I was using your post as an example of good advice 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/35 "2011-11-06T01:47:28Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > Yes, Paul – I wasn’t fussing at you! I was using your post as an example of good advice 🙂 Ah, makes sense. Peace, bro. Um, sis. Um…ah hell. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774/36 "2011-11-06T15:02:13Z")
Stranger said it best, but I wanted to add one point. Something in the OP suggested that he thought that no new mathematics was being discovered and that is simply false. There was more new mathematics discovered in the 20th century than in the previous 25. Incidentally, to all the posters who ridiculed his English, you say more about your own intolerance than his English. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-abolish-the-mathematics-in-the-school/601774.md?page=1)