# I want my films! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967 "2012-06-12T22:44:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/1 "2012-06-12T22:44:13Z")
I have a number of movie titles in mind that are not available today on Netflix or any other online service, AFAIK. Some were once released as VHS and/or DVD long ago. Even some of the ones that were may no longer be available except in a used market. Some that I saw in a movie theater once have never been seen since. My question is…strictly hypothetical, as I don’t plan on starting such a service…how much would it cost, in conversion fees alone (not royalties) to transfer a 35mm print to a decent online video file with little or no editing or color correction? And if a VHS or DVD exists already, such a transfer would be easier, albeit at a sacrifice in quality. It seems like if this cost were not outrageous, even the most obscure bomb would make sense to post online if it could return _something._ Sure, royalty holders would demand some compensation, and rightfully so, but any compensation would be way more than what they are getting right now, or zero. So why aren’t we flooded with old flicks, available for pennies? No matter how obscure, isn’t there some market for them? ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/2 "2012-06-12T23:08:19Z")
Since this is a question for which there is probably a factual answer, I’m moving this thread to General Questions. From IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/3 "2012-06-12T23:52:21Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > Since this is a question for which there is probably a factual answer, I’m moving this thread to General Questions. From IMHO. No problem; that’s where I was going to start it, but thought better of it. Let’s see how this goes. So far, I have been sent a PM to a movie site, but none of the flicks on my list are there. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/4 "2012-06-13T00:55:40Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > It seems like if this cost were not outrageous, even the most obscure bomb would make sense to post online if it could return _something._ Sure, royalty holders would demand some compensation, and rightfully so, but any compensation would be way more than what they are getting right now, or zero. > > So why aren’t we flooded with old flicks, available for pennies? No matter how obscure, isn’t there some market for them? My understanding is that in some cases it’s not clear who owns the rights at this point. Especially because in many cases the rights might be split up. A company might own the right to a movie but not the right to a song that is played in the movie. So to legally show the movie, you’d have to reach an agreement for both the right to show the movie and the right to play the song. Another example would be the old TV series _Crusader Rabbit_. A company wanted to sell the series on video and they bought those rights from another company which thought it owned those rights. But after the video company manufacturing the videos they found that the other company didn’t own the rights - something that company apparently hadn’t known. It found out it owned the rights to the show but didn’t own the rights to the characters. (There was a settlement where the video company was allowed to sell the videos it had already made but not manufacture any more.) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/5 "2012-06-13T01:34:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My understanding is that in some cases it’s not clear who owns the rights at this point. Especially because in many cases the rights might be split up. A company might own the right to a movie but not the right to a song that is played in the movie. So to legally show the movie, you’d have to reach an agreement for both the right to show the movie and the right to play the song. I’ve heard that. If true, it’s time the laws changed, or we – society – will permanently lose a vast amount of valuable (and not so valuable) material because the law is an ass. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/6 "2012-06-13T02:23:54Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I’ve heard that. If true, it’s time the laws changed, or we – society – will permanently lose a vast amount of valuable (and not so valuable) material because the law is an ass. My suggestion would be that there should be some kind of default royalty program. If you want to distribute some work, you should first contact the rights holder. But if you’re unable to find the rights holder you could buy the rights for a standardized rate from the default program. Then anyone who wanted to come forward in the future and make a claim that they held those rights could go to the default program and submit a claim for the money being held there. This would make it possible to get works back into circulation that are currently locked up in copyright limbo. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/7 "2012-06-13T02:38:12Z")
I think the issue is that the demand for these films is so microscopic, it’s already being met by the current supply of used copies. Especially if you can get a used copy on ebay for less than a dollar, you’re not going to make up even a tiny digitization cost. I would direct you to Something Weird Video, however. This is a company in Seattle that specializes in taking films that push the term obscure to its very limits and putting them on VHS, DVD and recently digitizing them. There’s a few “big name” B-movie directors they’ve managed to get a hold of and get rights from (and even recorded some great commentary tracks with), but the vast majority of their catalog are basically abandoned property-- the rights holders simply can’t be found. Every once in a blue moon they’ll get contacted by a rights holder and have to take a title down, but that is really rare. It is my impression (and I may be wrong) that SWV is largely kept afloat by the sales of vintage porno titles and a handful of the better-known classic expolitation titles, and keeps expanding their extensive back catalog (and moving it up to new formats) as more of a labor of love than a real profit-making venture. Here’s a link to a SFW “about us” page, although any extensive clicking will lead to the aforementioned (NSFW) vintage porno: [http://www.somethingweird.com/cart.php?page=about\_swv](http://www.somethingweird.com/cart.php?page=about_swv) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/8 "2012-06-13T03:02:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My understanding is that in some cases it’s not clear who owns the rights at this point. Especially because in many cases the rights might be split up. A company might own the right to a movie but not the right to a song that is played in the movie. So to legally show the movie, you’d have to reach an agreement for both the right to show the movie and the right to play the song. This is true. It’s exactly what held up the release of _Urgh! A Music War_ for years and years; the people who held the rights to the film did not have the rights to use the music in newer formats (DVD, BR, etc.). They finally resolved that issue with all but one band (Splodgeness Abounds) and released the film on DVD minus 4 minutes of footage. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/9 "2012-06-13T03:28:49Z")
I’m moving this to Cafe Society, where you can still get factual answers about film. Seems a better location. **samclem** , Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/10 "2012-06-13T03:32:10Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > I think the issue is that the demand for these films is so microscopic, it’s already being met by the current supply of used copies. Especially if you can get a used copy on ebay for less than a dollar, you’re not going to make up even a tiny digitization cost. Warner Bros’ solution to the minimal interest in their back catalog is a [service](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warner_Archive_Collection) that will make DVDs of obscure movies from their collection on demand. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/11 "2012-06-13T04:30:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My suggestion would be that there should be some kind of default royalty program. If you want to distribute some work, you should first contact the rights holder. But if you’re unable to find the rights holder you could buy the rights for a standardized rate from the default program. Then anyone who wanted to come forward in the future and make a claim that they held those rights could go to the default program and submit a claim for the money being held there. > > This would make it possible to get works back into circulation that are currently locked up in copyright limbo. Also, there should be a use-it-or-lose it provision for copyrights; if you refuse to make the copyrighted work available for sale, then you lose the rights to it. The point of copyright law is supposed to be to give people an incentive to release their creative work to the public; not for them to just sit on it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/12 "2012-06-13T05:04:23Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > but the vast majority of their catalog are basically abandoned property-- the rights holders simply can’t be found. Hey, you try and find the guy who holds the rights to _Molemen Against the Son of Hercules_. Who’d want to admit they were involved in the creation of that? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/13 "2012-06-13T05:05:48Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > This is true. It’s exactly what held up the release of _Urgh! A Music War_ for years and years; the people who held the rights to the film did not have the rights to use the music in newer formats (DVD, BR, etc.). Same thing with _The Decline of Western Civilization_ series. Another unusual example is _California Split_, a Robert Altman movie from 1974. In this case, it isn’t a song but there’s a scene in the movie where a television is playing in the background - and the studio doesn’t have the right to release the cartoon that’s playing on the TV. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/14 "2012-06-13T11:33:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Another unusual example is _California Split_, a Robert Altman movie from 1974. In this case, it isn’t a song but there’s a scene in the movie where a television is playing in the background - and the studio doesn’t have the right to release the cartoon that’s playing on the TV. I suppose that could be rectified like _WKRP_ was – by replacing the cartoon with something else if it’s incidental to the story. Might take more CGI bucks than it’s worth, though. ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/15 "2012-06-13T15:56:20Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > how much would it cost, in conversion fees alone (not royalties) to transfer a 35mm print to a decent online video file with little or no editing or color correction? And if a VHS or DVD exists already, such a transfer would be easier, albeit at a sacrifice in quality. [Commercial labs](http://www.dvfilm.com/faq.htm) charge about $350/per minute to digitize a 35mm film. With discounts, a 75 minute feature would cost $20,000. For Super 8mm film, you can get a machine that does the scanning for about $1000. But for 35mm, a TeleCine or DFT scanner is going to be upwards of $15,000. Maybe less used. Thus answering your question: > [@Musicat](#): > > So why aren’t we flooded with old flicks, available for pennies? No matter how obscure, isn’t there some market for them? It’s expensive to scan the films, even with no effort made to restore or re-master. Even in a very large volume, you need to find a way to pay those costs. At pennies per view and \<1000 viewers per film, I can’t see how it would ever break even. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/16 "2012-06-13T16:37:08Z")
I can’t research it right now, but wasn’t there some issue with the Japanese film **Tampopo** being released on DVD? Netflix doesn’t carry it, and it’s not a minor film. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/17 "2012-06-13T17:39:30Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I suppose that could be rectified like _WKRP_ was – by replacing the cartoon with something else if it’s incidental to the story. Might take more CGI bucks than it’s worth, though. Replacing something on the soundtrack can be done relatively easy (although it may cost more than the release is worth). In addition to _WKRP in Cincinnati_, the television series _Wiseguy_ had to replace several songs it had used. The movie _FM_, which was similar to WKRP (the show’s producers have always insisted any similarities are coincidental), faced the same soundtrack issues. But replacing something that’s seen on the screen is much more difficult, especially is you want to do anything more complicated than just covering it up with a blur or black bar. Which is reflected in what the studio finally did with _California Split_ so it could be released on DVD. Once again, the rights to the cartoon and the song being played in the cartoon were split. So the studio bought the rights to show the cartoon on screen but they blanked out the song. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-my-films/624967/18 "2012-06-13T20:02:10Z")
> [@anson2995](#): > > [Commercial labs](http://www.dvfilm.com/faq.htm) charge about $350/per minute to digitize a 35mm film. With discounts, a 75 minute feature would cost $20,000. > > For Super 8mm film, you can get a machine that does the scanning for about $1000. But for 35mm, a TeleCine or DFT scanner is going to be upwards of $15,000. Maybe less used. I guess that answers it, although I can’t see the $350/min charge as reasonable. Labs will do 8mm for much less (although I decline to look up a figure, I’ve seen them), and I know one dude who projects 8mm on to a screen and videos the screen. Hardly high-quality, but if you started with 35mm first, it would be much better, and a charge of $500 per hour would be a windfall for the operator. But films already transferred to VHS, skipping the $350/min, would cost only a few dollars total to make into a file that YouTube can process.