# I want to be a Jew **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2002, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471 "2002-04-08T12:12:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/21 "2002-04-08T13:39:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* Why do you try to equate citizenship with being Jewish? I hve been to great lengths to establish the connection of Israel with Jews. I have been reminded that Jews \<\> Israel. What is your point on citizenship? America does not confer citizenship on anyone due to religious birth rights. \*\* Okay, now your question is clearer. I think what you are really asking is “Why does Israel grant automatic citizenship to Jews but not to non-Jews?” Before I answer, let me point out that Israel does allow non-Jews to become citizens, but it is with a long drawn-out process similar to the citizenship procedures used by countries all over the world. But that doesn’t really change or answer Sweet Willy’s question. The answer, I believe, is that the State of Israel was created specifically to be a homeland for the Jews, and that the intrinsic nature of that state is to be a Jewish state. Therefore, preferential treatment **is** given to Jews. Are such policies racist? That depends on how you define “race”. If “race” is a biological term, then conversion is a loophole which allows us to say that such policies are not racist. (Of course, we’d then have to agree that \*anti-\*Jewish policies aren’t racist either.) But even if the word “racist” does not apply, I’d think that “discriminatory” does. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/22 "2002-04-08T13:39:36Z")
Main Entry: 1gen·tile Pronunciation: 'jen-"tIl Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1 often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2 : HEATHEN, PAGAN 3 often capitalized : a non-Mormon OK, we have people born in America that are athiest but we consider them Jews. Why? I don’t see that “gentile” requires any ancestry. > [@](#): > > I was drawing what some folks call an analogy. Yes, and a poor one. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/23 "2002-04-08T13:44:57Z")
Sweet Willy must ask himself why. Why are there these laws of Jewish ancestry or belief? Why are Jews afforded protection by Israel? It is really very simple. The Nazis didn’t care whether you believed or not. Or, if you were a convert, they didn’t take pity on you. Sorry to invoke Godwin so fast. But persecution against Jews throughout history is undeniable, and the laws of immigration of Israel and many of the traditions of descent of Judaism are direct consequences. For instance, Judaism is passed down the maternal line. One of the reasons for this is because children born out of rape of Jewish women throughout history would be accepted into the community. Call this racist, call it protectionist, call it isolationist, call it Freddy if you want. It is a forseeable and many would argue necessary consequence of history. If you want something done right, in this case protection for Jews, you have to do it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/24 "2002-04-08T13:46:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\*Yes, and a poor one. \*\* :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/25 "2002-04-08T13:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Err… no. Not actually. You see, Judaism does not allow one to “renouce his/her religion.” If I decided right now to stop practicing Judaism and begin practicing Buddhism, I would simply be a non-practicing Jew. This is the craziest thing I ever heard. If you wish to renounce your religion then you obviously don’t wish to adhere to their religion. Why would that keep _you_ from renouncing your religion? I will allow you to renounce it **sdimbert.** I would suspect that most people who don’t accept Judaism would respect your renunciation more than Judaism does. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/26 "2002-04-08T13:51:42Z")
Hey Willy! You’ve been invited for membership in an elite group! Click [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=108319) for further details Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/27 "2002-04-08T13:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UDS \* > Sweet Willy, there are two ways to become Jewish. You can be born Jewish, or you can convert. It’s too late for the first route, and you’re not willing to take the second route. It follows that you cannot become Jewish. > > I don’t see why you’re having a problem with this. Because SW’s a bigot. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: big·ot > Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot > Date: 1661 > : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices > > - big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective > - big·ot·ed·ly adverb > _from Merriam-Webster online dictionary_ ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/28 "2002-04-08T14:01:21Z")
I want to be a small Hindu woman. ---
**Author:** ![ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/29 "2002-04-08T14:02:40Z")
Okay, I’m a little behind here, so someone needs to tell me what the point behind this flailing attempt is. I’m assuming the point is that Jews bestow certain privileges on other Jews and therefore, are a racist clan. And further, that should you try to BECOME a Jew in order to be awarded these marvelous prizes of Judaism, it would be difficult if not impossible, and therefore, the Jews are doubly “racist.” Am I close? And further, if that IS the point, why beat around the bush with an argument about wanting to be a non-Jewish Jew? Belonging to ANY sub-group of the human population has its pros and cons. Living in a library district allows you to have access to a library card for that district, and thus, to check out books. Being of (obviously) African-American descent means that other blacks are able to pick you out of a crowd as one of their own. What are the amazing benefits to being Jewish that you feel you’re being denied? Do you have plans to move to Israel, and are thus proclaiming that your denial of citizenship is discriminatory? If you’re dying to go to temple or have a Seder, I’m sure that can be arranged…I doubt any Jew is going to deny you that right. And should you choose to become a serious convert, no one would discriminate against you on the basis of color, previous religious orientation or nationality. What then, is the problem? L ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/30 "2002-04-08T14:03:33Z")
> [@](#): > > If you want something done right, in this case protection for Jews, you have to do it yourself. **Edwino,** Protect who you must. Why does the faith insist on including Athiest born to Jewish mothers? They would otherwise not need your protection. I would not persecute anyone for whom they were born to. Alot of us gentiles (anyone who isn’t a Jew) feel inferior because we can’t be Jews. I see alot of Jews that aren’t religious, like me, but I can’t be a non religious Jew. I am a little jealous. Do you care at all about how Jewish tradition affects gentiles? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/31 "2002-04-08T14:05:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > This is the craziest thing I ever heard. If you wish to renounce your religion then you obviously don’t wish to adhere to their religion. Why would that keep _you_ from renouncing your religion? I will allow you to renounce it **sdimbert.** I would suspect that most people who don’t accept Judaism would respect your renunciation more than Judaism does. \*\* Well, if you don’t like the rules, don’t join the club. If you don’t like the rules Judiasm imposes upon you, don’t become a Jew. **Sweet Willy** , It’s already been explained to you. I’ll do it once more, just for old-times sake. There are two ways in which one can become a Jew: [list=1] [li]Be born of a Jewish mother[/li][li]Convert via a rabbinical court[/li][/list=1] See, two methods. Got it so far? Good. If you want to convert via the rabbinical court, you have to follow their rules. Got it so far? Good. One of the rules is that you must accept the Jewish faith. Got it so far? Good. If you don’t like the rules, then don’t join the club. Don’t join a baseball team and say that you want to be a quarterback. Don’t become a Catholic to become an imam. Don’t join a wine-tasters club if you don’t like alcohol. Don’t apply for Judaism if you don’t want to accept Judaism. Got it so far? Good. Another rule that we “wascly Jews” have is the “once in, you’re in for life” rule. IOW, once Jewish law recognizes you as a Jew, it will always recognize you as a Jew. Got it so far? Good. Now, if you don’t like that, I invite you to check out the first sentence of what I wrote four paragraphs ago. To reiterate: “If you don’t like the rules, then don’t join the club.” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/32 "2002-04-08T14:06:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > Well, for some anyway. For others it is very, very, easy. All you have to do is be born. You do realize (or should) that the same applies to being a citizen of the United States? For some, all they have to do is be born either on US soil or to a US citizen who can, _ **PROVIDED THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW GOVERNING CITIZENSHIP ARE MET** _, pass along US citizenship. For others, those wishing to become US citizens, they have to jump through some hoops. So, how about it? Are you going to finally admit you’re just doing this becuase you’re bigoted against Jews? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/33 "2002-04-08T14:07:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SexyWriter \* > \*\*Okay, I’m a little behind here, so someone needs to tell me what the point behind this flailing attempt is. I’m assuming the point is that Jews bestow certain privileges on other Jews and therefore, are a racist clan. And further, that should you try to BECOME a Jew in order to be awarded these marvelous prizes of Judaism, it would be difficult if not impossible, and therefore, the Jews are doubly “racist.” Am I close? And further, if that IS the point, why beat around the bush with an argument about wanting to be a non-Jewish Jew? > > Belonging to ANY sub-group of the human population has its pros and cons. Living in a library district allows you to have access to a library card for that district, and thus, to check out books. Being of (obviously) African-American descent means that other blacks are able to pick you out of a crowd as one of their own. > > What are the amazing benefits to being Jewish that you feel you’re being denied? Do you have plans to move to Israel, and are thus proclaiming that your denial of citizenship is discriminatory? If you’re dying to go to temple or have a Seder, I’m sure that can be arranged…I doubt any Jew is going to deny you that right. And should you choose to become a serious convert, no one would discriminate against you on the basis of color, previous religious orientation or nationality. > > What then, is the problem? > > L \*\* Thank you **SexyWriter** for making the point bluntly. We all know that our good buddy **Sweet Willy** has no real intention of becoming Jewish. He should simply and openly state his points (laughable, though they are) and be done with it. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/34 "2002-04-08T14:10:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > I will allow you to renounce it **sdimbert.** I would suspect that most people who don’t accept Judaism would respect your renunciation more than Judaism does. \*\* Well, some would respect it. Historically, most haven’t. That doesn’t change the fact, though, that, under Jewish law, it’s impossible to stop being a Jew. IIRC, under Catholic law it’s impossible to stop being a Catholic, also. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/35 "2002-04-08T14:12:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Thank you SexyWriter for making the point bluntly. We all know that our good buddy Sweet Willy has no real intention of becoming Jewish. He should simply and openly state his points (laughable, though they are) and be done with it. I do want to be Jewish. I want to find a way to be a Jew without having to accept the religion. I see alot of others that are Jewish but not religious and I want to know why I am excluded. If you are racist just say it. I can accept that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/36 "2002-04-08T14:12:58Z")
“Feel inferior?” “How Jewish tradition affects Gentiles?” Oh, come off it! If you’re all that concerned about Jewish Tradition, then you’d surely know what a Righteous Gentile is. p.s. Sure ain’t you, SW! ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/37 "2002-04-08T14:13:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > I do want to be Jewish. I want to find a way to be a Jew without having to accept the religion. I see alot of others that are Jewish but not religious and I want to know why I am excluded. If you are racist just say it. I can accept that. \*\* And when did you stop beating your wife? :rolleyes: Again, I repeat: “If you don’t like the rules of the club, then don’t join.” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/38 "2002-04-08T14:14:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* Alot of us gentiles (anyone who isn’t a Jew) feel inferior because we can’t be Jews._\* Whence this feeling of inferiority? Do you feel inferior because you can’t be a (please insert name of a group to which you do not belong)? If a group (Kiwanis, Boy Scouts, The House of Lords, whatever) which allow new members, has certain rules about who can join and how to join. What don’t you understand about that? (If a person purchases a lifetime membership to the National Geographic Society, and then burns down their office building, I wonder if they’d be allowed to revoke his already-purchased lifetime membership. Once a member, always a member, perhaps.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/39 "2002-04-08T14:15:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > If you are racist just say it. I can accept that. Right back atcha. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/40 "2002-04-08T14:17:19Z")
> [@](#): > > . That doesn’t change the fact, though, that, under Jewish law, it’s impossible to stop being a Jew. IIRC, under Catholic law it’s impossible to stop being a Catholic, also. Man that is crazy. If you don’t believe in Jewish law or Catholic law why does it matter? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471.md?page=3)