# I want to be a Jew **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2002, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471 "2002-04-08T12:12:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/81 "2002-04-08T15:31:47Z")
As the inital premise appears to be less a debate and more of an anti-semetic tirade… O.K. Sweet Willy let’s say I have the ability to go “poof” and make you a Jew… 1. Is it O.K to make you a Jew during the Spanish Inquisition? 2. How about Germany circa 1939? 3. Or the US in 1949? My point being-during any of the aforementioned points in time, it wouldn’t matter if you were a Christian convert or an atheist, your parentage would define your race and identity for the majority of the population and you would be treated accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/82 "2002-04-08T15:32:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > The focus of my argument is the same. I want to know how I can be Jewish without accepting the faith. \*\* You can’t end of story. Why? Because the rules of the club say so. End of story. Don’t like it? Don’t join, and then no one will force you to remain a Jew against your will. End of story. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Who says Jews are horrible besides you? \*\* I was using sarcasm. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\* > They practice racism. \*\* Cite, please? > [@](#): > > \*\* > That leads the excluded groups to do horrible things. \*\* So, is it your argument that the Nazis were justified in doing “horrible things” because they felt excluded??? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Tell you what? \*\* How Jewish tradition affets gentiles. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/83 "2002-04-08T15:32:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* Now see what you can do to stop being a racist. Other people will think poorly of you for it. … They practice racism. That leads the excluded groups to do horrible things._\* Why should someone stop being a pro-Jewish racist? Can you give an example of one of the “horrible things” done by pro-Jewish racists? (Besides automatic Israeli citizenship, I mean…) ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/84 "2002-04-08T15:36:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* I am not willing to accept the Jewish faith but I still want to join. \*\* I’m one of those ‘Jews’ that don’t accept the faith. However, because I don’t accept the faith, I have no desire to live in Israel, attend Jewish functions, go to Temple, or do anything with a group of people who’s common denominator is that they all believe in the Jewish faith. When people ask me what my religion is I tell them that I don’t ascribe to any organized religion. When describing my ancestry, I say ‘Russian Jewish’, since it gives them something to picture, i.e., the Fiddler on the Roof gang. I’m only Jewish by cultural ancestry, not religion. So if you’re a religious Jew, then you either accept the faith of your parents, or you convert to accept the faith. What you’re trying to do, Sweet Willy, is convert to having the ancestry, which you can’t do. Nobody can - there is no conversion process for ancestral ties. **"If my mom is Jewish I don’t have the friggin choice whether I like the rules or not."** Actually that’s not true. If you give up the faith, then you don’t have to follow the religious idea that Judaism is passed down from your mom. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/85 "2002-04-08T15:37:41Z")
> [@](#): > > . A person born Jewish is not required to proclaim to all and sundry that that person believes this or believes that. He’s expected to obey the Law; however, if he doesn’t obey the Law, he’s merely a non-observant Jew. And how would you characterize such a system **Monty?** > [@](#): > > ## Sweet Willy, Zev DID answer your question!!! quote: > > ## Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt at 10:38 AM EDT I don’t think Jewish tradition affects gentiles at all. Yes. And I think **Zev Steinhardt** must have his head in the Israeli sand. **Zev Steinhardt,** I learned the meaning of “putz” here on this board. Because the board does not allow personal insult but does allow the use of “putz”, I am confused as to your objection of its use. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/86 "2002-04-08T15:38:04Z")
oops, sorry. I misread Sweet Willy’s last post. I thought it said that the _racists_ do horrible things. My bad. If I had read it correctly, I’d have posted something similar to what Zev wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/87 "2002-04-08T15:38:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* Tell you what? \*\* You know, I laughed when **Atreyu** brought up that Turing test argument, but now I’m not so sure it was a joke. This comment is exactly the thing a low grade AI program would say. Not that I contributed much to this debate, but I give up. This is a completely hopeless case. Good day all. ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/88 "2002-04-08T15:40:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by edwino \* > \*\*You want special citizenship rights? Form a group called the Sweetwillites, get your group persecuted for 2000 years, and then convince the UN to give you a homeland in North Carolina. Have fun. \*\* Now why would you want to do that to the poor innocent folks of NC? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/89 "2002-04-08T15:47:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > Yes. And I think **Zev Steinhardt** must have his head in the Israeli sand. \*\* First of all, I invite you to look to the left of any of my posts. I may have my head in the Brooklyn sand, but hardly in the Israeli sand. Secondly, so instead of just saying “he’s wrong,” how about pointing out where I’m wrong? IOW, I put the question back to you. In what way, in your opinion, does Jewish tradition affect gentiles. > [@](#): > > \*\* > **Zev Steinhardt,** I learned the meaning of “putz” here on this board. Because the board does not allow personal insult but does allow the use of “putz”, I am confused as to your objection of its use. \*\* I consider it an insult. You’ll note that I have not used it as such (nor issued any other insult) against you. All I ask is that you not use with regard to me. If you cannot give me this simple courtesy, then fine, simply say so and wel’ll move on. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/90 "2002-04-08T15:48:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zwaldd \* > \*\*“If my mom is Jewish I don’t have the friggin choice whether I like the rules or not.” > > Actually that’s not true. If you give up the faith, then you don’t have to follow the religious idea that Judaism is passed down from your mom. \*\* Well, that depends on what the definition of “have to” is. If “don’t have to” means that the police will not enforce it, then I agree that “you don’t have to”. On the other hand… Being that this is, after all, Great Debates, I trust that no one will object to my bringing God into the discussion. If God really does exist, and Judaism accurately represents His feelings (I’m not forcing anyone to accept either of those ideas, but **if** they happen to both be true) then “have to” is defined by what God expects from us, whether we accept it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/91 "2002-04-08T15:50:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Why should someone stop being a pro-Jewish racist? **Keeve,** this is the exact mentality that needs to be addressed. Racism breeds hate and intolerance. Please tell me why you shouldn’t stop being racist. I can give you a million reason why you should stop. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/92 "2002-04-08T15:51:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*\*\*First of all, I invite you to look to the left of any of my posts. I may have my head in the Brooklyn sand, but hardly in the Israeli sand. > \*\* Does Brooklyn have sand? I thought it was all paved over. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/93 "2002-04-08T15:56:43Z")
In many cases of extreme bigotry, a common theme is that the predjudiced individual feels cast out of society and is economically disadvantaged. He sees members of a minority group who share a common bond which is not immediately available to him, and perceives that some members of that group are economically better off than him. His hostility is irrationally directed at that group. The stubborn refusal to accept facts and alter one’s opinions is understandable, when the unacceptable alternative is to face up to one’s own inadequacies. I believe that this explains a number of recent SDMB postings. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/94 "2002-04-08T15:58:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I consider it an insult. You’ll note that I have not used it as such (nor issued any other insult) against you. All I ask is that you not use with regard to me. If you cannot give me this simple courtesy, then fine, simply say so and wel’ll move on. > > Zev Steinhardt What’s the matter **Zev Steinhardt?** Is the fact that Jewish insults are somehow included, while others are not, getting to you? As for how these things affect gentiles, I will tell you that I cringe every time I come to this reply promt due to some icons that are exclusive to Jews. Where are the “Happy Athiest” smilies? Where is the “dick head” smiley? Wonder who and what infuences this? The exclusion of other religious icons coupled with the inclusion of Jewish icons is offensive isn’t it? Are you getting the picture? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/95 "2002-04-08T15:59:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > **Keeve,** this is the exact mentality that needs to be addressed. Racism breeds hate and intolerance. Please tell me why you shouldn’t stop being racist. I can give you a million reason why you should stop. \*\* And please tell me when you stop beating your wife? I can give you a million reasons why you should stop. :rolleyes: Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/96 "2002-04-08T16:04:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > What’s the matter **Zev Steinhardt?** Is the fact that Jewish insults are somehow included, while others are not, getting to you? \*\* No. You’ll note that I asked you not to issue any insults, not just Jewish ones. I have extended this courtesy to you and ask that you extend it to me as well. Again, if you are unable to do so, simply say so and we’ll move on. > [@](#): > > \*\* > As for how these things affect gentiles, I will tell you that I cringe every time I come to this reply promt due to some icons that are exclusive to Jews. Where are the “Happy Athiest” smilies? Where is the “dick head” smiley? Wonder who and what infuences this? The exclusion of other religious icons coupled with the inclusion of Jewish icons is offensive isn’t it? Are you getting the picture? \*\* A smilie makes you cringe??? Come now, surely you’ll have to do better than that. And are you asserting that Jewish tradition is responsible for which icons get included in the “smilie list” is somehow due to Jewish tradition? If there was enough of a demand for a “Happy Atheist smilie” (how would it be depicted anyway?) then I’m sure the board administrators would institute one. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/97 "2002-04-08T16:06:09Z")
> [@](#): > > In many cases of extreme bigotry, a common theme is that the predjudiced individual feels cast out of society and is economically disadvantaged. He sees members of a minority group who share a common bond which is not immediately available to him, and perceives that some members of that group are economically better off than him. His hostility is irrationally directed at that group. The stubborn refusal to accept facts and alter one’s opinions is understandable, when the unacceptable alternative is to face up to one’s own inadequacies. > > I believe that this explains a number of recent SDMB postings. Well this is good in theory, but your characterization is wrong. I am neither cast out of society or economically disadvantaged. I am quite well off by most standards. I don’t have envy or hate or anything negative towards Jewish people. They don’t affect my economic status at all. I am trying to give the jewish a little insight as to why every group of people you have ever interacted with winds up wanting to evict or kill you. Racism is bad. we have proved it over and over again. Stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/98 "2002-04-08T16:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* Keeve, this is the exact mentality that needs to be addressed. Racism breeds hate and intolerance. Please tell me why you shouldn’t stop being racist. I can give you a million reason why you should stop. \*\* I don’t need a whole million. Perhaps you can start with just a few? I don’t hate non-Jews. I don’t mind if they are my co-workers or next-door neighbors. I once had a boss who was a non-religious Jew, and asked if I know any people who he might be able to hire. I told him, “I do know one guy, but he is Orthodox like the 5 programmers you already have. I can’t to that to you. The office is empty on the Jewish holidays and you need to find someone who can come in and handle the work.” It is true that most of my friends are Jewish. That’s because the things which are important and interesting to them are also important and interesting to me. I enjoy science-fiction too, (but not as much as I enjoy my Judaism) and I have had some non-Jewish friends over the years, many of whome were similarly into science fiction. Yes, there are indeed **some** Jews who are hateful and intolerant of non-Jews. But to brand them **all** like that is like saying that all Muslims are terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/99 "2002-04-08T16:07:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* Where are the “Happy Athiest” smilies? Where is the “dick head” smiley? Wonder who and what infuences this? \*\* Well, you could make them if you wanted. The “putz” smiley is in honor of Wally47, a doper who passed away. Wally used to call people putzes a lot. I’m not sure where the orthodox smiley comes from, but if you’d like to design some smileys, you should design them and submit them to ATMB for consideration. I’m still wondering how Jewish Law effects non Jews, or the horrible things Jews do. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/100 "2002-04-08T16:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > > Well this is good in theory, but your characterization is wrong. I am neither cast out of society or economically disadvantaged. I am quite well off by most standards. I don’t have envy or hate or anything negative towards Jewish people. They don’t affect my economic status at all. \*\* I am trying to give the jewish a little insight as to why every group of people you have ever interacted with winds up wanting to evict or kill you. \*\* Racism is bad. we have proved it over and over again. Stop it. Good grief. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471.md?page=6)