# I want to be a Jew **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2002, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471 "2002-04-08T12:12:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/141 "2002-04-08T21:42:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > **This thread is mine. It is about why I can’t become a Jew.** I and a few others are unclear about whether you might actually already be a Jew. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sweet Willy at 10:39 AM EDT, near the top of Page Two_ > **Yeah, now you are getting the picture: I am an ahtiest but I am a Jew.** I think what you meant is “I consider myself not to be Jewish, but rather to be an Atheist, and by the way, my mother is Jewish.” If that’s **not** what you mean, then please ignore the rest of this post. But if that **IS** what you mean, then we have a major problem here of defining terms: If Jewishness is defined the way most Jews use the terms, then this question was answered long ago. But if you want to define Jewishness in your own way (as you are perfectly free to do), then why are you asking **us**??? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/142 "2002-04-08T21:43:09Z")
Sweet Willy, would you like to know how to become a Cherokee? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/143 "2002-04-08T21:52:28Z")
> [@](#): > > **Celestina** , hijacked the thread You are repeating your error. It was not a hijack. The statement was asserted that there was no reason why blacks should be separated from their culture more than other immigrants. **Celestina** gave a description of the acts and effects of _breaking_ and the specific ways in which it did, indeed, destroy links to the imported slaves’ culture. She did not talk about every aspect of slavery on _either_ side of the Atlantic except to note points related to the deculturization. You decided to misread her post and get in a huff because she did not talk about African black-on-black slave taking. However, that slave-taking was not directly responsible for the deculturization process that was the specific point in that discussion in that thread. You committed the hijack by failing to read what was posted in the context of the thread. You have imposed your own (unspecified) definition of racism on Jews in the **Orion** \*…\*\* thread and have now gotten around to blaming anti-semitism on Jews–just as you hijacked that thread to blame slavery on Africans. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/144 "2002-04-08T21:53:56Z")
I’m heading home. Please don’t mistake my silence for anything other than unavailability. See y’all later. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/145 "2002-04-08T22:00:23Z")
> [@](#): > > If racism is not hate or intolerance then can you please tell us what it is? Many other people on this thread have attacked you, but I am trying to make a genuine attempt to understand what you are saying. Main Entry: rac·ism Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi- Function: noun Date: 1936 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination - rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective > [@](#): > > If racism is not hate, and racism is not intolerance, then what the heck is it about racism that you don’t like? Once you embrace racism hate and intolerance will grow. It may not grow out of your race. It very well may grow out of another group in response to the evident racism in yours. We have been told here that conversion, while existant, is discouraged. There is a great preference for birth rights, for members of the race. "We prefer _real_ Jews. > [@](#): > > You can, in theory become a Jew. However, as you are not sincerely seeking the answer, aside from using it to prove Judaism is racism, Judaism is not racism. It contains a racist element. I am not damning the entire religious philosophy. I am concerned with the racist element. The funny part is that my motivation is to help Jews find a way to co - exist with out breeding such hatred. I want to be a Jew. I don’t want to accept the religion. There are other Jews that don’t accept the religion and never have. What makes them better than me? Why not choose me? If the answers reveal racism, then they reveal racism. The biggest part of solving a problem is identifing and acknowledging the problem. You do agree that racism is a problem? > [@](#): > > They aren’t better; they’re Jewish. I mean, how do we become whatever you are? Are you better than we? You already are one of us. You are a human right? There are two words to examine here: One for Jews; Main Entry: Jew Pronunciation: 'jü Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old French gyu, from Latin Judaeus, from Greek Ioudaios, from Hebrew YehudhI, from YehudhAh Judah, Jewish kingdom Date: 13th century 1 a : a member of the tribe of Judah b : ISRAELITE 2 : a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the 6th century B.C. to the 1st century A.D. 3 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people 4 : one whose religion is Judaism One for every other human being on the face of the planet; Main Entry: 1gen·tile Pronunciation: 'jen-"tIl Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin gentilis, from Latin gent-, gens nation Date: 14th century 1 often capitalized : a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith; especially : a Christian as distinguished from a Jew 2 : HEATHEN, PAGAN 3 often capitalized : a non-Mormon ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/146 "2002-04-08T22:02:31Z")
::waves arms above the din and calls for time-out:: ::puts on Patience Hat:: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > **We can. This thread is mine. It is about why I can’t become a Jew.** **SW** , I’m gonna take a fresh stab at this. It seems to me that your OP means one of two things: [ul] [li]You’re asking a technical question about Jewish Law: you want to know whether Jewish Law permits a petitioning convert to continue with conversion if all understand that he does not intend to ever believe in the tenets of the Jewish faith or follow its laws.[/li][li]You’re hiding your real question behind a thin veil. In fact, what you’re really asking is how come Israel gets to decide that only certain people (namely, the Jews) can take advantage of the Law of Return. Isn’t that racist?[/li][/ul] Here’s where I’m hung up. If you’re asking A, then I think it’s been answered. Basically, the answer is no. Them’s the breaks. If you’re asking B, then I need to come at this from a different direction. So - which question, A or B, is closer to your intented query? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/147 "2002-04-08T22:05:16Z")
Still waitin’ **Sweet Willy**. Where’s the proof that Jews are racist? Where’s the proof that I (as a Jew) am racist? Where’s the proof that the “ancient idiots” said racism is OK? Still waitin’ for you to back up your words… Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/148 "2002-04-08T22:09:46Z")
Why are ya’ll still feeding the energy monster? Let this thread die, please. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/149 "2002-04-08T22:10:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\*Can we _pleeeeeease_ just move this thread to the Pit, where it belongs, and where, seeing as it’s merely a thinly veiled rant by someone immune to rational discussion, it should have been started in the first place? \*\* Moved and seconded. Moderator? Please? Pretty please? With sugar? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/150 "2002-04-08T22:14:07Z")
True, there is a factor of heritage in terms of who is a Jew. However, if memory serves, there are certain Jewish laws that require banishment, in a sense, as punishment for their breaking. Correct me if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/151 "2002-04-08T22:15:34Z")
> [@](#): > > You have imposed your own (unspecified) definition of racism on Jews One more time **Tom,** Main Entry: rac·ism Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi- Function: noun Date: 1936 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination - rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective **Tom,** this is a “definition”. I promise I did not make it up. Make a note of it. > [@](#): > > Zev Steinhardt, We have established that Judaism discourages conversion and endorses birth rights. It is accepted that a “racial” Jew is preferable to a convert regardless. If you don’t accept that, then here’s to you. Now get to work on your bretheren. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/152 "2002-04-08T22:19:10Z")
**Zev** , it’s simple. Jews get to determine who is Jewish. One of the rules is that one is Jewish as long as one’s mother was Jewish, regardless of religious belief. This “Jewish by descent” rule is _clearly racist_. Now, in the other thread, it was pointed out (as it has been repeated, here), that Hitler and all his pogrom-calling, ghetto-building predecessors had been perfectly content to target even non-observant Jews when they were inflicting their hatred. **S W** ’s reply was that it would be perfectly OK if Israel had decided to provide a refuge for everyone on Earth, but to provide a refuge for people based on the fact that they would be persecuted (for being Jewish) was simply _wrong_. In this thread, of course, he has gone further, claiming that 2,000+ years of persecution have been the natural reaction of all the people upon whom the Jews inflicted their presence. (As in the other thread, of course, he has chosen to present no evidence of this. It is simply, obviously, true.) Basically, like another former poster, he believes that if the Jews would just be like the rest of us, they would not have any problems. So, it’s your own fault; now quit crying about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/153 "2002-04-08T22:22:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I and a few others are unclear about whether you might actually already be a Jew. Good observation. What difference would it make in this argument? > [@](#): > > * * * > > ## Originally posted by Cervaise Can we pleeeeeease just move this thread to the Pit, where it belongs, and where, seeing as it’s merely a thinly veiled rant by someone immune to rational discussion, it should have been started in the first place? > > Moved and seconded. > > Moderator? Please? Pretty please? With sugar? > > Fenris That is funny !!! Why can’t you discuss this in a rational manner? I am not trying to be offensive. I am trying to find out why I am excluded from being a Jew on religious grounds while the faith allows for Athiest Jews by birth right. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/154 "2002-04-08T22:23:20Z")
> [@](#): > > It is accepted that a “racial” Jew is preferable to a convert regardless Cite? Your dictionary definition fails your test. Nothing in Judaism predicates superiority. You have not established (outside your head) that descent equal racism. Your little displays of C&P are meaningless until you actually put together a coherent thought that goes beyond “They call their kids Jewish, they’re racist.” ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/155 "2002-04-08T22:24:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > We have established that Judaism discourages conversion and endorses birth rights. \*\* Really? Have we established that? I will admit that we do turn away potential converts, but do you know why? (HINT: It’s not that we don’t want converts) > [@](#): > > \*\* > It is accepted that a “racial” Jew is preferable to a convert regardless. If you don’t accept that, then here’s to you. Now get to work on your bretheren. \*\* Where is the proof that a “racial” Jew (by which I assume you mean a Jew who was born a Jew) is preferrable to a convert? Jewish law regards converts as full fledged Jews, with the same responsibilities and rights to rituals that all other Jews recieve. Where is your proof from a Jewish law text that Jews who aren’t born are somehow less Jewish than those who were born Jewish? Where’s the proof? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/156 "2002-04-08T22:24:52Z")
Sweet Willy, what we are dealing with is not discrimination, only some favoring. One might say that it is preferable or favored that you should be born to a Jewish mother to be considered Jewish. However, there is no real discrimination as far as I know in the conversion process. To my knowledge, the conversion process is difficult for everyone. The only difference is that some people are born Jewish. You also must note that someone who did not believe in Judaism at all, nor is likely to, is extremely unlikely to even try to convert. So, Judaism may participate in some slight favoring in terms of heritage, but Judaism is not a race, and it does not support intolerance, persecution, or discrimination, at least to my knowledge. Perhaps you know something I don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/157 "2002-04-08T22:25:01Z")
> [@](#): > > This “Jewish by descent” rule is clearly racist. That is all I wanted to hear **Tom.** Sorry I had to drag it out of you. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/158 "2002-04-08T22:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I am trying to find out why I am excluded from being a Jew on religious grounds while the faith allows for Athiest Jews by birth right. Because Hitler and Louis Farrakhan are not going to condemn you because your maternal grandmother was Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/159 "2002-04-08T22:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > I am trying to find out why I am excluded from being a Jew on religious grounds while the faith allows for Athiest Jews by birth right. \*\* And that’s where you are wrong. If you are born Jewish, the faith does not recognize any later “conversion” to athiesm. As far as Judaism goes, there is no such thing as a Jewish athiest. A Jew can state he’s an atheist, but in the eyes of Jewish law, he’s still a Jew. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/160 "2002-04-08T22:27:53Z")
> [@](#): > > That is all I wanted to hear Tom. Sorry I had to drag it out of you. Gee, I thought you were sufficiently bright to recognize sarcasm. In case anyone else is as confused by the English language as **S W** , I was paraphrasing _his_ odd beliefs, not expressing any of mine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471.md?page=9)