# I want to be a Jew **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2002, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471 "2002-04-08T12:12:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/161 "2002-04-08T22:29:47Z")
**tomndebb** , You forgot to use the :rolleyes: icon… 🙂 Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/162 "2002-04-08T22:31:25Z")
> [@](#): > > and it does not support intolerance, persecution, or discrimination, at least to my knowledge. Perhaps you know something I don’t? No, I only know what you know my friend. I have never heard of Judaism promoting hate or intolerance directly. > [@](#): > > As far as Judaism goes, there is no such thing as a Jewish athiest. That is good **Zev Steinhardt**. I would like to see a real seperation of the religion and those who claim “Jewish” on racial grounds. Then I could respect your religion and direct this kind of things at those who would slander your religion by professing to be a Jew while also professing the non existence of God. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/163 "2002-04-08T22:32:36Z")
**zev** , I generally refrain from any of the smilies on the grounds that I am addressing an audience sophisticated enough to understand the printed word. You may be right that my expectations are too high in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/164 "2002-04-08T22:34:40Z")
Okay, Sweet Willy, remind me again why you think the six million Jews deserved to die in the Holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/165 "2002-04-08T22:38:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Zev, it’s simple. Jews get to determine who is Jewish. > One of the rules is that one is Jewish as long as one’s mother was Jewish, regardless of religious belief. > This “Jewish by descent” rule is clearly racist. Sounds about right to me **Tom.** > [@](#): > > Okay, Sweet Willy, remind me again why you think the six million Jews deserved to die in the Holocaust? Remind you? Of what? That is sinister and I take it as an insult to my character.:wally ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/166 "2002-04-08T22:39:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > That is good **Zev Steinhardt**. I would like to see a real seperation of the religion and those who claim “Jewish” on racial grounds. Then I could respect your religion and direct this kind of things at those who would slander your religion by professing to be a Jew while also professing the non existence of God. \*\* [Sigh] Once more for old time’s sake: Someone who is born a Jew is a Jew for life – regardless of any actions he or she may later commit. Someone who converts to Judaism (and was a sincere convert) is a Jew for life – regardless of any actions he or she may later commit. Therefore, if a Jew who professes to be an atheist is still a Jew - regardless of whether he was born that way or became one through conversion. Got it? What’s discriminatory about that. And I’m still waiting for your proof that Jews prefer “racial Jews” to converts. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/167 "2002-04-08T22:39:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > Sounds about right to me **Tom.** > > Remind you? Of what? That is sinister and I take it as an insult to my character.:wally \*\* Oh? You don’t remember suggesting multiple times that the persecution of the Jews was deserved due to their racist policies? ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/168 "2002-04-08T22:43:00Z")
> [@](#): > > zev, I generally refrain from any of the smilies on the grounds that I am addressing an audience sophisticated enough to understand the printed word. You may be right that my expectations are too high in this instance. I’ll give you that **Tom,** I am not a very sophisticated person. I am pretty much down to earth. I do, however, understand printed words quite well. I just learned a new one. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/169 "2002-04-08T22:47:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > That is all I wanted to hear **Tom.** Sorry I had to drag it out of you. \*\* Main Entry: sar·casm Pronunciation: 'sär-"ka-z&m Function: noun Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut Date: 1550 1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain \ 2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm \ 3. A technique which, in an argument can amuse the sophisticated members of a debate while completely wooshing the tin-foil hat wearing lunatics. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/170 "2002-04-08T22:48:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh? You don’t remember suggesting multiple times that the persecution of the Jews was deserved due to their racist policies? No. Why don’t you quote me? Quote me as saying that Jews deserved persecution. You can’t. You lie. > [@](#): > > Once more for old time’s sake: Someone who is born a Jew is a Jew for life – regardless of any actions he or she may later commit. Why? Tell me why. Who has made this decree and on what grounds? > [@](#): > > And I’m still waiting for your proof that Jews prefer “racial Jews” to converts. The proof is in the pudding. It is given to them at birth by birth. ---
**Author:** ![ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/171 "2002-04-08T22:50:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > B] The proof is in the pudding. \*\* Mmmmmmm…Jewish Pudding! ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/172 "2002-04-08T22:52:04Z")
Once again **Sweet Willy** Converts are considered as full-fledged Jews. They have the same religious responsibilites as Jews from birth, as well as the same religious rights to rituals as Jews from birth. That being said, where is the official bias against converts. Please cite the relevant Jewish law text. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/173 "2002-04-08T22:55:55Z")
> [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Originally posted by Sweet Willy That is all I wanted to hear Tom. Sorry I had to drag it out of you. > > Main Entry: sar·casm > Pronunciation: 'sär-"ka-z&m > Function: noun > Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut > Date: 1550 > 1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain \ > 2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm \ > 3. A technique which, in an argument can amuse the sophisticated members of a debate while completely wooshing the tin-foil hat wearing lunatics… Very good **Fenris.** Now talk to **Tom.** ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/174 "2002-04-08T23:07:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\*I do, however, understand printed words quite well. I just learned a new one. :wally \*\* [Inigo] You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means. [/Inigo] ---
**Author:** ![Mandos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mandos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandos)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/175 "2002-04-08T23:08:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > No. Why don’t you quote me? Quote me as saying that Jews deserved persecution. You can’t. You lie. > > \*\* Do you really think I would lie. The following quotes are full posts of yours: Taken from page 4 of “Are you jewish religion and ideology a threat to us all” “OK. I have had enough of this. I am taking off for a long week end and shall forget this debate for a while. Let me leave you with this; Until the Jewish religion and the nation of Israel open their eyes to the racism in their policy, you will continue to be persecuted by those who will hate you for it. I wish it were not so, for I love all people, but history does not lie.”-Sweet Willy Taken from page 2 of “I want to be a Jew” “Well this is good in theory, but your characterization is wrong. I am neither cast out of society or economically disadvantaged. I am quite well off by most standards. I don’t have envy or hate or anything negative towards Jewish people. They don’t affect my economic status at all. I am trying to give the jewish a little insight as to why every group of people you have ever interacted with winds up wanting to evict or kill you. Racism is bad. we have proved it over and over again. Stop it.”-Sweet Willy You seem to imply in both posts that Jews deserve the persecution they have gotten. Maybe you can explain exactly what you meant when you said these things… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/176 "2002-04-08T23:21:54Z")
I realize accusing someone of being a Troll is poor form for a Great Debate, but how much ducking and weaving and attempted button-pushing can a person do before the “T” word is dragged out and flatly applied? To me, repeatedly using the “putz” icon (or any other insult) against someone after being asked to stop is reminiscent of an elementary-school recess argument. It’s also pretty obvious when a person refuses to acknowledge certain relevant questions, let alone answer them, that the debate is runing on empty and it’s just childish stubborness keeping it alive, as well as a sense of superiority stemming from the ability to keep baiting people and have them react. I try to back away from a debate when it become obvious that the other peron is putting considerably less mental effort into it than I am. The best ways to spot this are: [ul][li]Repetition of earlier points.[/li][li]The ignoring of questions requiring complex answers.[/li][li]Cutting and pasting of published material (including dictionary entries)[/li][li]Nit-picking of individual words and sentences, as opposed to addressing opponent’s overall position.[/li][li]One-sentence rebuttals.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/177 "2002-04-08T23:37:12Z")
William, Willy, Willikins, Silly-Billy-Willy, Willy Wonka. Last Willy And Testament, ``` you clearly understand things about Judaism that I don't. Being born Jewish, I don't know how I missed this. But, you, YOU, saw it right away. So, from now on, I will follow you everywhere in hopes of learning your wisdom. ``` PS The Jewish Smilies aren’t the only racist ones. The Green Smilies 😃 :rolleyes: 😛 are matches for the skin tones of Tars Tarkas’ people. Why should the Green Men of Barsoom have their own special Smilies? It’s discrimination!!! ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2002, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/178 "2002-04-08T23:59:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sweet Willy \* > \*\* > > Very good **Fenris.** Now talk to **Tom.** \*\* :: Shrugs :: Ok. “Well done, **Tom**! Once again your cogent arguments have both enriched the debate and clarified issues. Kudos!” Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/179 "2002-04-09T01:06:09Z")
> [@](#): > > ## . > > [Inigo] > You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means. > [/Inigo] Why don’t you think I know what it means? Do you think the cute little Jewish insult is obscure to the rest of us? Unless the people here lied to me, I know what it means. > [@](#): > > You seem to imply in both posts that Jews deserve the persecution they have gotten. Maybe you can explain exactly what you meant when you said these things… You seem to imply that you can read my mind. If I tell you that if your kid keeps poking at that mean dog he is going to get bitten, would you imply that I think the child deserves to be bitten? I don’t think Jewish people deserve anything less than the same treatment afforded any other human beings by civilized people. What they get may be quite different than what they deserve. It is something called “reality”. Check it out sometime. > [@](#): > > . Being born Jewish, I don’t know how I missed this. Well it is probably the fact that you were born Jewish. Ever consider an outside point of view as relevant? Ever consider why some might be hateful towards Jews besides “they are hateful people”? > [@](#): > > To me, repeatedly using the “putz” icon (or any other insult) against someone after being asked to stop is reminiscent of an elementary-school recess argument. To me, restricting personal insults from this forum while accomodating yiddish insults lends credence to my position. Think the SDMB would allow a little smiley in a white hood that says “nigger”? Probably not. Wonder why Jewish cultural insults are OK. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2002, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471/180 "2002-04-09T01:07:22Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** This thread has not been moved to the Pit. It is in Great Debates. In this thread, questions relating to Jewish identity and ethnocentrism will be discussed. THERE WILL BE NO DIRECT PERSONAL INSULTS OF OTHER POSTERS. Anyone wishing to insult other posters is directed to the Pit. _ **THE PROHIBITION ON DIRECT PERSONAL INSULTS INCLUDES GRATUITOUS USE OF THE “PUTZ” SMILEY.** _ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-a-jew/102471.md?page=10)