# I want to be formally condemned by a religious group. What are some easy and safe ways to do this? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 14, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320 "2016-06-14T02:45:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/21 "2016-06-14T15:39:16Z")
If you’re Jewish (either by birth or via Orthodox conversion), your easiest option is to affiliate with a Hasidic congregation. Once you’ve established yourself as a member of the community, do something forbidden or outrageous (having a failed marriage and refusing to grant your wife a religious divorce is always good, but owning an xBox or having an internet connection may be sufficient, depending on the community) to get yourself called before the _beit din_ (religious court). Tell the rabbis to go take a hike, and they will most likely issue a document formally condemning you and declaring you in _cherem_ - basically instructing the community to have nothing to do with you and barring you from using the community’s synagogue, mikveh, and other facilities. The declaration is likely to be posted all over the place, so you can easily grab a copy for yourself and have it framed, posterized, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/22 "2016-06-14T15:39:40Z")
Have you tried forging your own document to impress your friends? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/23 "2016-06-14T16:27:16Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Odds are that the Westboro Baptists have already condemned you, in fact, since most of us are members of at least one group which, we have been assured, “God hates”. > > But I think the OP is looking for his own warm and personal condemnation. He is, and they usually do this by naming the target in their colorful signs. robert\_columbia doesn’t really rhyme with much, which limits sign making potential. > [@Donnerwetter](#): > > According to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church), the Westboro Baptist Church has only 40 followers which, IMHO, doesn’t meet the criterion “sizeable following”. Ah, but the media are honorary measures, because they love to cover the zany antics of a tiny group of nutjobs. > [@cwthree](#): > > If you’re Jewish (either by birth or via Orthodox conversion), your easiest option is to affiliate with a Hasidic congregation. Once you’ve established yourself as a member of the community, do something forbidden or outrageous (having a failed marriage and refusing to grant your wife a religious divorce is always good, but owning an xBox or having an internet connection may be sufficient, depending on the community) to get yourself called before the _beit din_ (religious court). Tell the rabbis to go take a hike, and they will most likely issue a document formally condemning you and declaring you in _cherem_ - basically instructing the community to have nothing to do with you and barring you from using the community’s synagogue, mikveh, and other facilities. The declaration is likely to be posted all over the place, so you can easily grab a copy for yourself and have it framed, posterized, etc. Do you need a Jewish mother to “convert” to Orthodoxy, or are some groups okay with fresh converts? ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/24 "2016-06-14T16:43:02Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Do you need a Jewish mother to “convert” to Orthodoxy, or are some groups okay with fresh converts? If your mother is Jewish, you shouldn’t need to go through conversion at all. Some Hasidic and ultra-orthodox groups don’t really welcome newcomers, but some (e.g. Chabad) actively appeal to less-observant Jews. If your mother wasn’t Jewish and your conversion was handled by a non-Orthodox rabbi, many Orthodox and Hasidic rabbis don’t consider it sufficient. In that case, if you wanted to become part of an Orthodox or Hasidic community, you’d probably be advised to receive instruction and conversion according to their rules. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/25 "2016-06-14T16:55:56Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > If your mother is Jewish, you shouldn’t need to go through conversion at all. Some Hasidic and ultra-orthodox groups don’t really welcome newcomers, but some (e.g. Chabad) actively appeal to less-observant Jews. I know, hence the scare quotes. I’m not sure if there’s an official term though to reaffirm your faith. ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/26 "2016-06-14T17:53:52Z")
Don’t know if anyone does it anymore, but my great-grandfather was shunned by the local Baptist church back in the 20’s. He’d been a professional gambler before marrying my great-grandmother and he subscribed to a Socialist publication of some sort. The preacher got up and preached a sermon against him. He was not allowed to attend any church functions. In that place and that time, the church was the only community there was out there. It embarrassed my ggm horribly. Even in the 50s when they moved to town and she’d joined the large town church (membership more than about 75), he refused to set foot in a church. I’m sure there are some independent churches that practice shunning still. Not sure how you’re going to find one, but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/27 "2016-06-14T19:29:39Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Bell, book, and candle, baby. Definitely. Especially if you can find a bishop with a voice like Richard Burton: I wonder. If you made a huge contribution to charity, could you persuade a bishop to go through the whole ceremony for you? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/28 "2016-06-14T20:14:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Pretty sure the OP would be happiest with an actual certificate with his name on it. I think the only way to get that is to join a small congregation, act up so badly that they decide to kick you out, and get a trespass order. I don’t think excommunication is necessary, merely condemnation. And I think the earlier mention of the Westboro Baptist Church is an excellent one. My guess – write an inflammatory, condemnatory letter to them, and they will write you and equally (or more!) condemning letter right back. Would that suffice? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/29 "2016-06-15T03:53:04Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Preferably, I’d like to stay out of immediate mortal danger, so lets stay away from violent holy war type groups. I would also like to avoid breaking local secular law, so I’m not interested in smacking a priest or stealing holy objects. > > It turns out that it has become much more difficult to get the “bell, book, and candle” treatment from the Roman Catholic Church, as they have made the process nearly entirely honor-system based with people being told what “offenses” require them to go to Confession and beg for reconciliation and which do not. If a person violates the requirements, their punishment will come, at least in theory, after they die and are sent to hell. The infamous [Index of Prohibited Books](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum) has also been abolished, so just publishing something moderately inflammatory and/or science-y won’t do nearly as much as it would 300 years ago. > > What are some strategies for getting a _formal_ condemnation, censure, anathema, declaration of damnation, consignment to hell, accusation of witchcraft, etc. from a religious group (not necessarily Catholicism)? Just to make sure that the Straight Dope’s stated purpose is upheld, writing about science would not have brought condemnation from the Catholic Church. Some Catholic Universities at the time were among the world’s leading centers of scientific learning, and many Catholic clergymen were scientists; indeed it’s possible that at some points in time they made up a majority of the world’s scientists. The most important Catholic clergy scientist of the 17th century was [Francesco Maria Grimaldi](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07034a.htm), the first person to provide experimental evidence of the wave nature of light. If you wanted to get the Catholic Church very annoyed without breaking any laws, one way would be eucharistic desecration, i.e. sneaking the eucharistic wafer out of a mass without eating it, and then deliberately puncturing or burning it or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/30 "2016-06-15T16:14:57Z")
The Scientologists may be the best targets. Publish a bunch of stuff saying they’re a scam and get it noticed/blogged about and [odds are they’ll send you cease and desist letters](http://scientologistsfreezone.com/canddnotices.shtml), possibly even sue you. Those are some pretty real condemnations, and many people I know would consider it a badge of honor to be sued by the Scientologists. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/31 "2016-06-15T17:00:36Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > If you wanted to get the Catholic Church very annoyed without breaking any laws, one way would be eucharistic desecration, i.e. sneaking the eucharistic wafer out of a mass without eating it, and then deliberately puncturing or burning it or something like that. Biology professor and blogger P. Z. Myers did [exactly that](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/24/the-great-desecration/). While a number of Catholic bloggers, pundits, and other self-appointed talking heads roundly condemned him, I don’t thing the Catholic Church (or its designated representatives) issued any formal statement against him. ---
**Author:** ![cwniles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@cwniles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwniles)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/32 "2016-06-15T19:36:50Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > I don’t thing the Catholic Church (or its designated representatives) issued any formal statement against him. This is the problematic part of your question. Most well respected established religions are not going to go out of their way to denounce you unless you are some sort of public figure and/or have committed some especially vile act(s). Scientology, as mentioned previously, is not so picky…not so well respected either but hey, you want someone to condemn you, you might have to expand your pool of contestants. Read the link below for an idea on just what a “Suppressive Person Declare” is and how it just might meet your needs as it will no doubt contain gems such as “Your name here was called before a Committee of Evidence to look into his actions and ascertain charges of ecclesiastical crimes and high crimes.” and “your name here missed withholds on a pc and allowed that pc to continue spreading black PR and malicious rumors about the Church.” Also, any awards or recognition you have received will be revoked and you will be “denied any future services from Scientology Churches, missions, field groups and field auditors and are barred from entry into the premises of any Scientology organization, mission or group.” [http://tonyortega.org/2016/06/09/theres-nothing-quite-like-when-scientology-cancels-your-superhuman-powers-with-a-declare/#more-31837](http://tonyortega.org/2016/06/09/theres-nothing-quite-like-when-scientology-cancels-your-superhuman-powers-with-a-declare/#more-31837) Bear in mind that the SP Declare document wouldn’t be public but it shouldn’t be too difficult to obtain a copy as evidenced by the many leaked SP Declare documents out there. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/33 "2016-06-15T19:42:40Z")
[The Master spoke of this in 1998.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1164/how-do-i-go-about-getting-excommunicated) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/34 "2016-06-15T20:21:09Z")
Please note that excommunication in the RCC is a censure, not a state of anathema. It means that you done messed up and are invited to fix it, not that you are damned. Hence why [a guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_II_of_France) can be called “the Pious” and still be excommunicated. It is not intended to be a permanent state. The OP looks like either is fine, though. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/35 "2016-06-16T03:22:09Z")
Draw cartoons of Mohammed. Maybe someone will declare a fatwa on you? ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/36 "2016-06-16T20:56:23Z")
As a minister of the Universal Life Church, I declare that **robert\_columbia** is a very naughty boy, who deserves to be spanked by cheerleaders. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/37 "2016-06-16T23:47:15Z")
So far the rule of thumb seems to be that you have to be a member for them to condemn you , and if you aren’t they can go pound sand. If you aren’t a member and some organization issues something in writing, I can see where a retraining order (and possibly a suit for damages?) might come into play? ( INAL and we’d need one to step up and give opinions on that. ) Also, if that organizations members engage in criminal activity against a non member, might that be seen as a hate-crime? Again, INAL, calling those who are… ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/38 "2016-06-17T00:43:36Z")
It probably wouldn’t be too hard to be condemned personally by the Westboro Baptist Church. And since their condemnation would have no force of law you should be safe. They denounce people for anything! I remember when two police officers died in a helicopter crash, they published a statement that God had struck them from the sky for their offenses against the WBC. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320/39 "2016-06-17T01:25:47Z")
I got one for arriving 30 minutes early to pray before the service, raise a hand up during worship songs in praise, and sitting towards the front. Seems like that pastor didn’t like people actually knowing God, and not going through him, received such a note saying unless I stopped that and sat in the back I would not be welcome back, however God said that He will contend with this pastor, shortly after he was forced to retire due to extreme chronic pain. No problem going back now, however I too have moved on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-be-formally-condemned-by-a-religious-group-what-are-some-easy-and-safe-ways-to-do-this/757320.md?page=1)