# I want to find buried water pipes and/or power lines **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 24, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463 "2009-08-24T04:20:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/61 "2010-08-11T17:49:41Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > > [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > > > I’m not real sure you understand how a test like this typically goes. > > I know how it goes about 99% of the time. Your description hardly ever happens. Usually it goes like this. > > **Dowser** : I can detect large amounts of water, thousands upon thousands of gallons, flowing underground. > **Tester** : I shall test your ability to find which one of several bucketys is full of water. > **Dowser** : That isn’t what I do. > **Tester** : Well, that’s the test I’ll give you, agree to it or be disqualified. > **Dowser** : That is totally different from what I do, and I wouldn’t succeed in it, so no thanks. > **Tester** : Right, you’re disqualified. I’ve won again, yet another dowser who refuses to be tested properly. Hooray for me. How clever I am. This in general. I have always wondered why the test is of something or some method that is different from what is being actually tested for. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/62 "2010-08-11T18:16:25Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > See everything Randi has ever written. Except that Randi says clearly that, whenever they do an actual test, they do agree ahead of time on exactly what the dowser thinks they can do. Now, if there are lots of dowsers who have negotiated with Randi and been unable to agree on a fair test, then point me to some of them. It would of course be most convincing if the dowsers themselves did suggest some kind of objective test of their abilities. It’s worth noting that Randi does not think dowsers are frauds. From [JREF - Home](http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/) [QUOTE=James Randi] I must say that of all those who have ever tried to win the Pigasus Prize, and of those who I have otherwise tested in every part of the world, no claimants even approach the dowsers for honesty. …In only two instances one in Australia and the other in the U.K. did I ever encounter any cheating being tried by dowsers [/QUOTE] In fact, he’s pretty sympathetic: > [@](#): > > Unless you have actually experienced the ideomotor effect at work in yourselves, you cannot have a proper appreciation of how absolutely compelling and irresistible it can be and is. In fact, dowsers are insistent that the disbeliever should try the effect and thereby become convinced of its efficacy; they assure you that once you’ve tried it, you’ll change your mind. And they’re often right in that respect; the dowsing device really seems to move on its own, in response to some sort of external signal or force. I can’t find it now, but I thought he wrote once that he hated testing dowsers because they were always so honestly convinced it really worked that it was painful watching them fail in the blind tests. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/63 "2010-08-11T19:07:42Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > And all I have is 2 copper wires 12 to 24 inches long. > > Can it be done? > > Or it snake oil like dowsing/witching/divining etc? I could probably use the wires to detect a buried power line. Provided it was buried 11-23 inches below the ground. And I didn’t mind dying in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/64 "2010-08-11T19:35:51Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > > > See everything Randi has ever written. > > Except that Randi says clearly that, whenever they do an actual test, they do agree ahead of time on exactly what the dowser thinks they can do. What Randi says and what Randi does are two different things. The fact is, Randi does not negotiate the test. He tells applicants the test that he is willing to give, and demands they comply. No discussion, no compromise, agree to his demands, or be disqualified. And it rarely matches what they claim, one of several reasons why so few people agree to be tested by him. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/65 "2010-08-11T19:37:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Your description hardly ever happens. Usually it goes like this. > > Dowser: I can detect **large amounts of water, thousands upon thousands of gallons, flowing underground.** > Tester: I shall test your ability to find which one of several bucketys is full of water. > Dowser: That isn’t what I do. > Tester: Well, that’s the test I’ll give you, agree to it or be disqualified. > Dowser: That is totally different from what I do, and I wouldn’t succeed in it, so no thanks. > Tester: Right, you’re disqualified. I’ve won again, yet another dowser who refuses to be tested properly. Hooray for me. How clever I am. > > This in general. I have always wondered why the test is of something or some method that is different from what is being actually tested for I may be wrong, but the only dowsers I have seen , and most of what I’ve heard about are NOT looking for thousands and thousands of gallons of flowing water—they are usually looking for a 2-inch water pipe at a construction site. Which is pretty much what Randi tests for. I have personally seen dowsing work twice, and was astounded each time. A contractor or a maintenance worker who needed to find a water pipe that wasn’t on the engineer’s drawings. Grab 2 welding rods, bend 'em as described in post number 55, and start walking–one time on a construction site, one time walking across an asphalt parking lot. Both times, the guy found the line. It blew me away… (and yes, I tried looking for logical answers–disturbed earth, or maybe nearby manholes or water meters, etc.— . But I never found any such evidence. So I tried it myself, looking for the water pipe to my own house, but Randi is right!–it sure didnt work for me… I blame it on the old excuse of confirmation bias. But it’s like playing with a Ouija board …when you see it actually work successfully, you get a little, well,…worried. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/66 "2010-08-11T19:39:22Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > > [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > > > And all I have is 2 copper wires 12 to 24 inches long. > > > > Can it be done? > > > > Or it snake oil like dowsing/witching/divining etc? > > I could probably use the wires to detect a buried power line. Provided it was buried 11-23 inches below the ground. And I didn’t mind dying in the process. What if it was buried zero to ten inches below the surface? ---
**Author:** ![Rocket\_Man\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Rocket\_Man\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocket_Man_1)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/67 "2010-08-11T20:06:35Z")
> [@IAmNotSpartacus](#): > > And all I have is 2 copper wires 12 to 24 inches long. > > Can it be done? > > Or it snake oil like dowsing/witching/divining etc? You’ve proved the null hypothesis by using copper wire. Copper is non-magnetic. You can’t possibly detect variation in the flux of the Earth’s magnetic field by holding 2 copper wires. > [@limegreen](#): > > Sorry that he’s deceased, but my Grandpop (very uneducated ex-coal miner) was famous in Southern Illinois for being able to find you water. All the old Mennonites wouldn’t trust the ‘govmint’ men, but Grandpop was always right on the money. They didn’t have much cash, but would pay Grandpop in chickens or produce, which helped the family survive in some lean times. Southern Illinois has a decent rainfall and is largely all Quaternary glacial deposits (silts, sands, gravels etc.). Its highly likely that you can find water in some amount simply by digging anywhere, especially in any topographic depression. It’s not the magic of divination, it’s hydrology. In fact this goes for pretty much of the surface of this planet. Dig far enough and you’ll find an aquifer, especially in unconsolidated materials suited to digging in. It’s also worth noting that in finding the 2" water pipe on a construction site, any dowser would need to effectively ‘tune out’ the 40 odd litres they carry around themselves, in much closer proximity to the dowsing rods than the water pipe. > [@alien21010](#): > > As a geophysicist, this directly falls within my area of expertise… > > … > > Or, you can try dowsing. Please hand in your geophysicist card. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/68 "2010-08-11T20:35:31Z")
> [@Rocket\_Man\_1](#): > > In fact this goes for pretty much of the surface of this planet. Dig far enough and you’ll find an aquifer, especially in unconsolidated materials suited to digging in. This is another lie that Randi has told often. Sorry, but he’s duped you. It isn’t true at all. Dig at a random spot, it is quite likely to come up dry. Here’s a fact for your consideration. Randi often tells stories like [this one](http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/randi01.htm): _I challenge all the dowsers in a similar way. Since 94 percent of the Earth’s surface has water within drillable distance my challenge is to find a dry spot! They don’t want to do it. Why? Because they only have a six percent chance of success._ I sent in my application, accepting his protocol exactly as he had described it, in many of his essays and lectures. He refused to carry out the test. Why? Because I’d have a very high chance of success, and he knows it. Randi fans on this message board hate me for doing this. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/69 "2010-08-11T21:33:49Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > > [@Rocket\_Man\_1](#): > > > > In fact this goes for pretty much of the surface of this planet. Dig far enough and you’ll find an aquifer, especially in unconsolidated materials suited to digging in. > > I sent in my application, accepting his protocol exactly as he had described it, in many of his essays and lectures. He refused to carry out the test. Why? Because I’d have a very high chance of success, and he knows it. > > Randi fans on this message board hate me for doing this. I’m very interested in what you can do, and what your protocol would be to test it. Can you post it or a link to it here? ---
**Author:** ![Rocket\_Man\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@Rocket\_Man\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocket_Man_1)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/70 "2010-08-11T21:48:54Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > > [@Rocket\_Man\_1](#): > > > > In fact this goes for pretty much of the surface of this planet. Dig far enough and you’ll find an aquifer, especially in unconsolidated materials suited to digging in. > > This is another lie that Randi has told often. Sorry, but he’s duped you. It isn’t true at all. Dig at a random spot, it is quite likely to come up dry. > > Here’s a fact for your consideration. Randi often tells stories like [this one](http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/randi01.htm): > _I challenge all the dowsers in a similar way. Since 94 percent of the Earth’s surface has water within drillable distance my challenge is to find a dry spot! They don’t want to do it. Why? Because they only have a six percent chance of success._ > > I sent in my application, accepting his protocol exactly as he had described it, in many of his essays and lectures. He refused to carry out the test. Why? Because I’d have a very high chance of success, and he knows it. > > Randi fans on this message board hate me for doing this. Firstly, accusing James Randi of lying about hydrology without any evidence whatsoever is not really GQ material, or a good line of argument. Secondly, I’m not surprised he hasn’t accepted, since you haven’t specified the depth you’d be required to reach, making it entirely meaningless. You’d also be able to asses the likelihood of finding water using a geological map, topographic and hydrological information well in advance of any test. Thirdly, if he did decide to take you up on his actual offer, _word for word_, he’d have a ≈ 100% chance of retaining his money, since ‘drillable distance’ is further than you think (and would cost you considerably in excess of the prize money). ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/71 "2010-08-11T21:54:22Z")
[previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394028) I put up a website detailing my application, but haven’t maintained it, and it’s offline. Basically, what I did was to accept the “find a dry spot” challenge _exactly_ as laid down by Randi in his many lectures. If you look through the thread, you’ll see the hatred from Randi supporters, who are obviously aware that he is lying, and who resent me exposing him. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/72 "2010-08-11T21:55:05Z")
Moderator Note Further discussion of Randi, or of **Peter Morris’s** interactions with him, are off limits in this thread, whether by **Peter** or to anyone else responding to him. We have had too many threads derailed by this topic. You may discuss the substance of the OP, but without reference to Randi. If you wish to discuss Randi, you can open a thread in GD. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/73 "2010-08-11T22:10:43Z")
> [@Rocket\_Man\_1](#): > > Firstly, accusing James Randi of lying about hydrology without any evidence whatsoever is not really GQ material, or a good line of argument. Wrong. I have supplied the evidence. Namely that Randi refused to carry out the test that he proposed. This is clearly > [@](#): > > Secondly, I’m not surprised he hasn’t accepted, since you haven’t specified the depth you’d be required to reach, making it entirely meaningless. Wrong. Such things were negotiable. Randi, however, re3fused to even discuss them. > [@](#): > > You’d also be able to asses the likelihood of finding water using a geological map, topographic and hydrological information well in advance of any test. True. And those maps are the very reason I can make my claim. They support the idea that water is rare in many areas. > [@](#): > > Thirdly, if he did decide to take you up on his actual offer, _word for word_, he’d have a ≈ 100% chance of retaining his money, since ‘drillable distance’ is further than you think (and would cost you considerably in excess of the prize money). Wrong. My proposal was to consult those very maps that you mention to see if a particular spot does, or does not, have underground water. No need to actually drill any holes, when the land has already been surveyed. And, BTW, I do in fact know how deep it is possible to sink a shaft. You might like to note that mankind has sunk some pretty deep ones WITHOUT striking water along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/74 "2010-08-11T22:11:52Z")
Note - Collibri hadn’t posted his warning when I started typing the above post. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/75 "2010-08-11T22:17:56Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Note - Collibri hadn’t posted his warning when I started typing the above post. Noted. (However, it is not a warning, but rather an instruction.) Others please take the debate elsewhere, if you are inclined to pursue it. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/76 "2010-08-11T22:23:55Z")
And, Collibri, why exactly do you object to me fighting ignorance? These discussions always are full of incorrect information, such as the claim that there is water everywhere. This claim is invariably made in these discussions, and it is wrong. Please explain why I should not correct the error when it occurs. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/77 "2010-08-11T22:31:11Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > And, Collibri, why exactly do you object to me fighting ignorance? These discussions always are full of incorrect information, such as the claim that there is water everywhere. This claim is invariably made in these discussions, and it is wrong. Please explain why I should not correct the error when it occurs. You may discuss the substance of the claim. What you may not do is bring in your dispute with Randi. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/78 "2010-08-12T02:24:01Z")
I this state it is _illegal_ to do any digging without consulting the people at the Call Before You Dig hotline. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/79 "2010-08-12T05:33:48Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > I this state it is _illegal_ to do any digging without consulting the people at the Call Before You Dig hotline. Kinda cramps your gardening don’t it? 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2010, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463/80 "2010-08-12T10:16:11Z")
> [@limegreen](#): > > Sorry that he’s deceased, but my Grandpop (very uneducated ex-coal miner) was famous in Southern Illinois for being able to find you water. This is because groundwater is very widespread. See this article from the [Missouri Department of Natural Resources](http://www.dnr.mo.gov/pubs/pub657.pdf): > [@](#): > > Few areas exist in Missouri where some water cannot be found at some depth with some quality and therein lies the success of the diviner in our own state. Of course Missouri isn’t Southern Illinois but it’s the same principle: Grandpops in Missouri believe they can dowse for the same reason. The US Geological Survey has a very comprehensive document on the subject of groundwater (but doesn’t specifically discuss dowsing) and [on this page](http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/circ1186/html/gen_facts.html)puts it very simply: > [@](#): > > Ground water occurs almost everywhere beneath the land surface. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-find-buried-water-pipes-and-or-power-lines/507463.md?page=5)