I want to find buried water pipes and/or power lines

[Chefguy]

@Rick

Or if you are going to build something it falls in construction which is something I have some experience with.
Rick’s fool proof method of finding underground wires, pipes etc:

1. Rent a large, heavy, expensive piece of machinery to dig a trench.
2. Dig said trench.
   You will find every damn wire, pipe, hose conduit, sewer line and OG knows what else that is buried there.
3. Pay to repair damages.

Or you might just call a locating service.

This is pretty accurate. In my construction career I witnessed the following (off the top of my head): punched through a storm sewer with a power auger; broke innumerable waterlines; ripped up innumerable secondary power cables; pulled up government benchmark caps; shut down power to a high-security naval magazine area by punching through the main communications cable with an auger. And the trifecta: cut through two 800-pair and one 400-pair telecom cables in one swipe with a backhoe.

Oh, and I witnessed a crane operator “find” an overhead primary cable with his boom, which was pretty spectacular.

[Patty_O_Furniture]

@Peter_Morris

There are certainly more than five senses, e.g. sense of balance, sensitivity to heat, and others.

Sense of fashion, sense of humor, sense of entitlement… there are all kinds of senses if you’re allowed to redefine the meaning of sense.

[Magiver]

@Peanuthead

Dowsing only works during a full moon. On a friday the 13th, And you must be a Scorpio. :rolleyes: Enough with the nonsense! We’re fighting ignorance here people.
The only way to find anything underground with your copper wires is to insert said wires into the ground till you hit something hard. The object will more than likely be a rock so this method is pretty much ineffective. Admit defeat and call the utility company.

I assure you I can dowse for water with 100% accuracy in my area and I’ve never tried it.

[BigT]

@Patty_O_Furniture

Sense of fashion, sense of humor, sense of entitlement… there are all kinds of senses if you’re allowed to redefine the meaning of sense.

Sense of balance is one of the defined seven senses, my friend.

As for finding scientifically accurate data on dowsing, all that would be required would be a group of dowsers who try to detect water and a control group that tries to find the same water. You’d only dig it up to see who is right afterward. As far as know, there has not been an experiment like this. So all that has been proven is that dowsing doesn’t work because of the tools.

As for the Randi thing, why would it be relevant? That is only for proving the supernatural. If it is caused by experienced dowsers using subconscious clues to identify locations that are likely to have water running under them, that wouldn’t be supernatural, and the prize would still go unclaimed.

Sometimes I think the greatest flaw in the way science is treated today is that we assume that our simplifications have not removed the one thing that is necessary for the situation to work. Sure, we’ve proven that the variables we actually tested aren’t relevant, but we haven’t tested the other variables that we removed from the experiment.

[BigT]

I accidentally pressed Post instead of preview. I meant to add a link and quote to my first sentence. I hate quoting from Wikipedia, but it is sourced, and it jives with what I learned in school. Apparently we are up to ten now.

There is no firm agreement among neurologists as to the number of senses because of differing definitions of what constitutes a sense. One definition states that an exteroceptive sense is a faculty by which outside stimuli are perceived. The traditional five senses Humans are considered to have at least five additional senses that include: nociception (pain), equilibrioception (balance), proprioception & kinesthesia (joint motion and acceleration), sense of time, thermoception (temperature differences), with possibly an additional weak magnetoception (direction), and six more if interoceptive senses are also considered.

[engineer_comp_geek]

@HorseloverFat

Look, there is zero proof that humans have any organ that let them sense magentic fields.

Actually, they do. The structure that provides this to you is located behind your nose, IIRC. I read about a recent study where they tested a human’s ability to actually use this sense by driving people around in an enclosed van. As long as they were blindfolded, they were able to tell which direction they were facing with surprising accuracy. The interesting thing was that this sense didn’t work at all when the blindfolds were removed.

They started testing this when they were looking over aerial photographs and noticed that cows align themselves along magnetic field lines.

I’ll see if I can dig up some cites.

[engineer_comp_geek]

Cows Really Do Have a Magnetic Sixth Sense

Cows Really Do Have a Magnetic Sixth Sense

Do humans have a compass in their nose?

Do humans have a compass in their nose?

These two quotes come from the second article:

Some years ago scientists at CALTECH (California Institute of Technology in Pasadena) discovered that humans possess a tiny, shiny crystal of magnetite in the ethmoid bone, located between your eyes, just behind the nose.

In any case, when it comes to humans, according to some experts, magnetite makes the ethmoid bone sensitive to the earth’s magnetic field and helps your sense of direction

Bio-magnetism: An Awesome Force in Our Lives
http://sg.geocities.com/alex_kew/biomagnetism.html

Blindfolded and ordered not to speak, the University of Manchester (England) students were escorted into a van without knowing where they were to be taken–or why. After traveling an hour on winding roads, the van stopped. With their eyes still covered, the students were led into a secluded clearing in a forest in hill country of central England.

R. Robin Baker, a university zoologist, took one of the young women aside and said, “I want you to point in the direction of our campus.” Like most of the others with her on that autumn afternoon, she pointed with uncanny accuracy in the direction of her campus home.

The “homing instinct” is known to exist in many creatures, from snails to honeybees to homing pigeons. Baker argues that we humans also have a natural sense of direction, however subtle or ignored, that is as real as our senses of sight, smell or hearing. He is convinced that this sense is magnetic because in his experiments blindfolded students, who otherwise displayed a keen sense of homing direction, became disoriented when magnets were put in helmets and placed on their heads.

[HorseloverFat]

Here’s a more decent study that shows people literally walk in circles when left to wander. Something tells me the homing instinct is a load of bunk or the study was flawed (light leakage from the blindfolds):

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=do-people-really-walk-in-circles-2009-08-20

Those traipsing about in the sun seemed to have little trouble keeping a relatively straight course. But once the sun

(or night moon) disappeared, volunteers seemed to get hopelessly lost and meandered about aimlessly—even though they believed themselves to be keeping a steady bearing. Those in the forest turned several circles, often recrossing their own path unknowingly.

“Even though walking in a straight line seems like a very simple thing to do, it’s actually very complicated,” Souman says. “It’s not a very natural thing to do.” And because researchers can’t very well give verbal instructions to lab rats or birds, it’s hard to know whether animals would perform any better than humans at this exercise.

The sun, it seemed was a “really important cue for direction,” says Souman, who suggests people used shadows to maintain their orientation. But even that didn’t present a clear-cut explanation. In the experiments, subjects were walking for a few hours at a time, during which the sun would move about 50-60 degrees, he explains. A strict adherence to the sun’s location would have meant a similarly bent course, but subjects somehow did seem to correct for the movement.

Humans LITERALLY walk in circles without the sun or the moon to guide them. Homing pigeons they are not.

[HorseloverFat]

As for the Randi thing, why would it be relevant? That is only for proving the supernatural. If it is caused by experienced dowsers using subconscious clues to identify locations that are likely to have water running under them, that wouldn’t be supernatural, and the prize would still go unclaimed.

That is EXACTLY what Randi and others are saying: People are just using confirmation bias and landmark clues to come up with “successes.”

[Peter_Morris]

Here’s a more decent study that shows people literally walk in circles when left to wander. Something tells me the homing instinct is a load of bunk or the study was flawed (light leakage from the blindfolds):

I understand that is due to most people having one leg slightly shorter than the other, about a millimeter’s difference. So, they take slightly longer strides with one leg than the other. It doesn’t say anything about magnetic sense.

[Magiver]

@HorseloverFat

Here’s a more decent study that shows people literally walk in circles when left to wander. Something tells me the homing instinct is a load of bunk or the study was flawed (light leakage from the blindfolds):

http://www.scientificamerican…

Pointing to where the campus is is not a magnetic heading. that would be more indicactive of the brain tracking the other senses. If the sun is behind clouds and I’m driving around I can keep track of which direction I’m traveling with little effort. Taking away sight I can still sense directional change.

It wouldn’t surprise me to find out we are able to sense magnetism but that test doesn’t explain it.

If I was going to test dowsing I wouldn’t compare different people dowsing the same location, I’d compare the same person dowsing the same location through blindfolded repetition going over the same area. I’d have the person attempt to walk a series of straight lines so that they intesect the same spot from 4 different dirrections. They would not be allowed to see the rod move as they walk and they would be holding a pressure sensitive rod that records the muscle changes necessary to make it move.

[HorseloverFat]

>It wouldn’t surprise me to find out we are able to sense magnetism but that test doesn’t explain it

I wouldnt be surprised if its just vestigial. The one study I saw that showed any usage for magnetism in humans was unable to reproduce elsewhere, so lets not just to conclusions.

[HorseloverFat]

I understand that is due to most people having one leg slightly shorter than the other, about a millimeter’s difference.

Thats a misconception:

People Do Walk in Circles When Lost

In an attempt to disprove this, the German team exaggerated the natural length difference between the feet, and made some participants wear a 12-millimeter-thick-sole shoe in just one foot. No clear correlation between adding the sole and a larger tendency of walking in circles was discovered, the experts say. Their complete results appear in the latest online issue of the scientific journal Current Biology.

[Mangetout]

@Peter_Morris

I understand that is due to most people having one leg slightly shorter than the other, about a millimeter’s difference.

Not me. I’ve got one leg longer than the other.

[Allan_B]

Yes, In fact I use it occassionally at work to locate underground power conduit. By using preferably a pair of welding rods and bending both.
ie.) 24" in total length bend 5" off to a 90 degree leaving 19’’. Hold the 5" part lightly in each hand in front of you with both at level with the ground and walk slowly perpindicular to an known water or power conduit. you will eventually notice that the rod will be in parallel with the line of sight of the known water or power conduit below you.

[YamatoTwinkie]

@alien21010

I am not a proponent of dowsing by any means, but dowsers would be right to neglect this kind of study, as it fails to reproduce ANY of the conditions that they claim success in.

I’m not real sure you understand how a test like this typically goes.

1. They place full water buckets and empty buckets out in the field (or pipes, or whatever), so the dowser can see exactly which is which. Dowser goes up to each bucket with his rods and says “yep, I can detect these perfectly”

2. They cover up the full/empty water buckets in the field, but they’re still labeled so the dowser knows which is which. Dowser goes up to each bucket and says “yep, I can still detect these perfectly”

3. Buckets with covers are randomized so the dowser no longer knows whether its full or empty beforehand. Dowser goes up to each bucket and says “yep, I can still detect these perfectly,” but as it turns out, only has a detection rate no better than chance.

4. Cue whining/excuses from the dowser.

[Peter_Morris]

@YamatoTwinkie

I’m not real sure you understand how a test like this typically goes.

I know how it goes about 99% of the time. Your description hardly ever happens. Usually it goes like this.

Dowser: I can detect large amounts of water, thousands upon thousands of gallons, flowing underground.
Tester: I shall test your ability to find which one of several bucketys is full of water.
Dowser: That isn’t what I do.
Tester: Well, that’s the test I’ll give you, agree to it or be disqualified.
Dowser: That is totally different from what I do, and I wouldn’t succeed in it, so no thanks.
Tester: Right, you’re disqualified. I’ve won again, yet another dowser who refuses to be tested properly. Hooray for me. How clever I am.

[Quercus]

@Peter_Morris

@YamatoTwinkie

I’m not real sure you understand how a test like this typically goes.

I know how it goes about 99% of the time. Your description hardly ever happens. Usually it goes like this.

Dowser: I can detect large amounts of water, thousands upon thousands of gallons, flowing underground.
Tester: I shall test your ability to find which one of several bucketys is full of water.
Dowser: That isn’t what I do.
Tester: Well, that’s the test I’ll give you, agree to it or be disqualified.
Dowser: That is totally different from what I do, and I wouldn’t succeed in it, so no thanks.
Tester: Right, you’re disqualified. I’ve won again, yet another dowser who refuses to be tested properly. Hooray for me. How clever I am.

How many of these conversations have you actually witnessed? Can you give cites (newspaper article, press release, self-congratulating blog post, anything) for the tester crowing about it afterwards?

[Peter_Morris]

See everything Randi has ever written.

[limegreen]

Sorry that he’s deceased, but my Grandpop (very uneducated ex-coal miner) was famous in Southern Illinois for being able to find you water. All the old Mennonites wouldn’t trust the ‘govmint’ men, but Grandpop was always right on the money. They didn’t have much cash, but would pay Grandpop in chickens or produce, which helped the family survive in some lean times.