# I want to give a formal apology to the SDMB **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 10, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200 "2020-01-10T01:56:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/61 "2020-01-11T19:32:07Z")
The apology was in the title. I really am sorry. I don’t think all of my opinions are completely unjustified based on many experiences, I just didn’t look well enough at other perspectives. It isn’t just here. I am apologizing to lots of people for my past behavior by looking at it as objectively as possible. However, I never was a troll. I really felt like that when I wrote what I did but things change and it is time to move on. I learned for a fact over this past year that almost anyone can change their behavior for the better through a change of heart. I have seen some people that were almost beyond redemption by their own admission do it so I am pretty sure I can too. Nobody has to accept my apology. All I can tell you is that the shame, guilt and attempt to do much better are very real. I also won’t accept shame for everything. Controversial viewpoints were only a very minor part of things that I have written over 20 years. I have also contributed a whole lot to factual questions (the core mission of this board), added some entertainment and lots more. People are complicated in that way but they do change over time if they are committed to it. I accept full responsibility for my whole life but I have also done lots of good and I am fundamentally kind and self-critical. People in real life respond really well to that. I am not sure everyone else is capable of that type of introspection. ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/62 "2020-01-11T20:25:15Z")
I accept Shag’s apology. Other than his weird views on women, he’s been an interesting member of the Dope. Time will tell his level of sincerity and ability to change his ways. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/63 "2020-01-11T20:54:56Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The apology was in the title. I really am sorry. I don’t think all of my opinions are completely unjustified based on many experiences, I just didn’t look well enough at other perspectives. > > It isn’t just here. I am apologizing to lots of people for my past behavior by looking at it as objectively as possible. > > However, I never was a troll. I really felt like that when I wrote what I did but things change and it is time to move on. I learned for a fact over this past year that almost anyone can change their behavior for the better through a change of heart. I have seen some people that were almost beyond redemption by their own admission do it so I am pretty sure I can too. > > Nobody has to accept my apology. All I can tell you is that the shame, guilt and attempt to do much better are very real. > > I also won’t accept shame for everything. Controversial viewpoints were only a very minor part of things that I have written over 20 years. I have also contributed a whole lot to factual questions (the core mission of this board), added some entertainment and lots more. > > People are complicated in that way but they do change over time if they are committed to it. I accept full responsibility for my whole life but I have also done lots of good and I am fundamentally kind and self-critical. People in real life respond really well to that. I am not sure everyone else is capable of that type of introspection. Qualifying your statement by saying, _'I wasn’t all bad, you know_’, and that you’re not apologizing for the things you don’t think you said/did wrong is missing the point, **Shaggy**. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/64 "2020-01-11T21:09:28Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I’ve been around the Dope a long time, but I must admit **Shagnasty** has never really come up on my radar. Perhaps our interests in threads are not the same. > > It seems like a lot of folks are coming down hard on him. Without checking out all his posting history, I can still assume he in some way has been a jerk. > > But if he really is repentant, why not just say, “okay, I see you are apologetic, hmmmm…” and sit back to wait? Acting hardcore yourselves will not encourage anyone to stay on the straight and narrow. If he really means it that could be discouraging. > > Why not just accept the apology and wait? People can really change. Wow. How’s the view from up there? Maybe you should actually read some of his old posts before you take us to task. By your own admission you have no idea about his history. You aren’t really in a position to criticize. That said, I think that people can change and I will take a wait and see approach. A lot of your posts were really gross, **Shagnasty** , but for what it’s worth, I always thought that you were basically honest. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/65 "2020-01-11T22:02:12Z")
**Shagnasty** has apologized. He appears sincere, yet some Dopers continue to bash him. This implies he is apologizing in an incorrect manner. So I ask this question: when a Doper apologizes for previous misconduct, how _should_ it be done? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/66 "2020-01-11T22:44:28Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Wow. How’s the view from up there? Maybe you should actually read some of his old posts before you take us to task. By your own admission you have no idea about his history. You aren’t really in a position to criticize. > > That said, I think that people can change and I will take a wait and see approach. A lot of your posts were really gross, **Shagnasty** , but for what it’s worth, I always thought that you were basically honest. The view is just fine. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/67 "2020-01-11T22:48:15Z")
Typical Shagnasty posts of awfullness: countless 1000s. Contrite, humble, changed Shagnasty posts: all of 1. Consider me as of yet unconvinced. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/68 "2020-01-11T22:49:25Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > **Shagnasty** has apologized. He appears sincere, yet some Dopers continue to bash him. This implies he is apologizing in an incorrect manner. So I ask this question: when a Doper apologizes for previous misconduct, how _should_ it be done? 😕 Do it, then drop it. If they don’t listen the first time, they won’t listen the second either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/69 "2020-01-11T22:49:54Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > **Shagnasty** has apologized. He appears sincere, yet some Dopers continue to bash him. This implies he is apologizing in an incorrect manner. So I ask this question: when a Doper apologizes for previous misconduct, how _should_ it be done? 😕 A few comments on this. First, a good apology is one that admits fault, acknowledges who you have harmed, and doesn’t look to shirk responsibility for what you’ve done. I’m still not exactly sure what the OP is admitting to, he certainly doesn’t acknowledge the hurt he has caused, and he deflects responsibility constantly. Second, there is no requirement that people accept an apology, even if it’s a good one. An apology is only the start of the process. I am very willing to grant forgiveness if I see a genuine change in a person, but that takes time and a bit more than an empty apology. Unfortunately, I see little change. As far as I can tell, he is not apologizing for his views of women, only for expressing them in an “inflammatory way.” But I’m not really offended by how he expresses himself, so I don’t need an apology for that. It’s his views that I find disgusting. And those appear to be the same. He has repeated that he thinks the ugly things he said in the past were true (again, look at his statements I quoted in post #42). He says it was all years ago and he’s a new person now that he’s engaged, but a quick search of his posts in the last year shows that’s not the case. Here are a couple things he says about his wonderful fiance. No wonder he worries she’ll find out. > [@IMHO: It's NOT taboo to date people who are outside of your "league"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/22): > > My girlfriend/fiancee is less physically attractive than I am or most of the others I have gone out with but that effect wears off after about a week. > > She used to be really self-conscience about it until I told her I just love her for being her which is completely true. I also have a whole lot more money than she does so, on paper, I am out of her league but she is a priest… > [@IMHO: It's NOT taboo to date people who are outside of your "league"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/124): > > I am physically attractive as countless women have told me in sexual and non-sexual ways. She has too but there is a whole lot more to it than that…I really am more physically attractive than she is… > [@IMHO: It's NOT taboo to date people who are outside of your "league"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/imho-its-not-taboo-to-date-people-who-are-outside-of-your-league/833323/154): > > The fact remains that my fiancee and I have incredible chemistry, tons in common and she is really attractive. I just happen to be better looking right now because she has a minor weight problem but I don’t care. > [@Is This a Guy Thing?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-this-a-guy-thing/841803/101): > > My fiancee often complains that I talk too much meaning that I speak at all. Our ratio is about 1000 to 1 words but I make them count. She blabbers about nothing. I usually tell her to just me know when she is done so that we can focus on the important things. Men don’t tend to care about other people’s relationships or what they are doing. That is the reason the busybodies in every neighborhood are almost invariably women. When someone tells me they “don’t tend to care about other people’s relationships or what they are doing,” I tend to believe them. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/70 "2020-01-11T23:08:24Z")
Good luck to you and prayers will ascend. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/71 "2020-01-11T23:17:19Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Thanks? > > But I understood what she said. I don’t know what you _understood_, I only know what you _wrote_. And a nice evening back atcha. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/72 "2020-01-11T23:18:56Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > I applaud your recognition that there are different ways to behave, and different ways to think, and your recognition that your behavior in the past does not meet the standard you have set for yourself now. > > Just be aware that any changes will take mighty discipline over the long haul. We humans have a tendency to “regression to the mean”. So, as you walk in these new shoes, you may find yourself drifting - recognize that this is normal, and don’t beat yourself up too hard about lapses. But do take these moments as opportunities for reflection and continued diligence. This. Well said, Icarus. Shag, I’m one who has been appalled by your posts. However, I have tried to see them as the view of someone who was immature, reactive, and not at all self-aware. It sounds like you have grown a great deal since then. This is something we should all strive to do and you get an “attaboy” for having done so. You really must continue doing so. Put yourself in the shoes of the people your rants were aimed at. Perhaps some of them were in the same immature pit as you, throwing shit back and forth. Think about the insults you have received and not forgotten or forgiven. Now, think about the insults you have thrown. Think they’ve been forgotten and forgiven? Wounds like that are pretty doggone permanent, aren’t they? So, yes, do better going forward. You can. You might want theraputic help to be sure it happens, but try no matter what. And try to forgive those who have wounded you. And keep trying not to wound others. Best of luck to you. Pssst. I like the “Shagnicely” suggestion. We’ll know who you were and be able to track your improvement. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/73 "2020-01-12T01:43:23Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > **Shagnasty** has apologized. He appears sincere, yet some Dopers continue to bash him. This implies he is apologizing in an incorrect manner. So I ask this question: when a Doper apologizes for previous misconduct, how _should_ it be done? 😕 I agree with **TroutMan** in that Shag is apologizing for the way he said something and not for his beliefs. Here’s an example : > [@Shagnasty is a misogynistic prick](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/shagnasty-is-a-misogynistic-prick/801661/1326): > > Yes. Almost all women are whores and they have their price. Then again, so do I. It is just about the negotiations process to come to terms. That quote is consistent with everything he has ever said about women. In his OP in this thread, he says "Everything I have ever said is true but it was presented in an inflammatory way that I deeply regret. " How do you interpret that? Was call all women whores an “inflammatory way of expression” or “is true” e.g., his internal belief? If he still believes that all women are whores, then I’m not particularly interested in hearing a apology for how his expressed this opinion. ---
**Author:** ![DummyGladHands](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@DummyGladHands](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DummyGladHands)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/74 "2020-01-12T02:39:12Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > I agree with **TroutMan** in that Shag is apologizing for the way he said something and not for his beliefs. Here’s an example : That quote is consistent with everything he has ever said about women. > > In his OP in this thread, he says "Everything I have ever said is true but it was presented in an inflammatory way that I deeply regret. " > > How do you interpret that? Was call all women whores an “inflammatory way of expression” or “is true” e.g., his internal belief? > > If he still believes that all women are whores, then I’m not particularly interested in hearing a apology for how his expressed this opinion. Nicely done ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/75 "2020-01-12T02:49:07Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The apology was in the title. I really am sorry. I don’t think all of my opinions are completely unjustified based on many experiences, I just didn’t look well enough at other perspectives. > > It isn’t just here. I am apologizing to lots of people for my past behavior by looking at it as objectively as possible. > > However, I never was a troll. I really felt like that when I wrote what I did but things change and it is time to move on. I learned for a fact over this past year that almost anyone can change their behavior for the better through a change of heart. I have seen some people that were almost beyond redemption by their own admission do it so I am pretty sure I can too. > > Nobody has to accept my apology. All I can tell you is that the shame, guilt and attempt to do much better are very real. > > I also won’t accept shame for everything. Controversial viewpoints were only a very minor part of things that I have written over 20 years. I have also contributed a whole lot to factual questions (the core mission of this board), added some entertainment and lots more. > > People are complicated in that way but they do change over time if they are committed to it. I accept full responsibility for my whole life but I have also done lots of good and I am fundamentally kind and self-critical. People in real life respond really well to that. I am not sure everyone else is capable of that type of introspection. It’s always nice when a humble apology ends with a not so stealth brag about being great at apologizing. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/76 "2020-01-12T03:02:44Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > **Shagnasty** has apologized. He appears sincere, yet some Dopers continue to bash him. This implies he is apologizing in an incorrect manner. So I ask this question: when a Doper apologizes for previous misconduct, how _should_ it be done? 😕 It should not surprise that in this era of me-too what qualifies as an acceptable apology has gotten some press. This bit though is more in the context of restorative justice, which may provide a more meaningful model. [FWIW.](https://lindseypointer.com/2016/05/30/restorative-justice-facilitates-effective-apologies/) > [@](#): > > Research from Ohio State University has recently identified six elements of an effective apology. The elements are: > > Expression of regret > Explanation of what went wrong > Acknowledgment of responsibility > Declaration of repentance > Offer of repair > Request for forgiveness > > Of those six elements, two are particularly important to having your apology accepted. The most important is acknowledgement of responsibility, which involves saying that it was your fault and you did something you should not have done. The second most effective element is an offer of repair, committing yourself to taking actions to make things right. > > When I read this article, it struck me that the two most essential elements to an effective apology are the backbone of restorative justice. In order to participate in restorative justice, an offender must take responsibility for his or her actions through telling the story of what happened and naming the impacts he or she sees. Following this acceptance of responsibility, the offender listens to the story from the perspective of the people most impacted and repeats back the harms, showing that he or she understands the full impact. Once all of the impacts are out in the open, together the offender, victim, and community members form a plan for what the offender can do to repair the harms and make things right. After all parties reach agreement, the offender follows through and completes the required repairs. … Again, I am not one of those who feels hurt by his past actions and not for me to accept or to reject his apology. It has however been made pretty clear what those who were hurt consider as not meeting those things. As explained by others it does read as saying “I am sorry for _how_ I told you that I think you are whores.” can you see why some might think that is not quite the sufficient first step. I have no idea what he could offer as repair. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/77 "2020-01-12T07:36:14Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > **Shagnasty** has apologized. He appears sincere, yet some Dopers continue to bash him. This implies he is apologizing in an incorrect manner. So I ask this question: when a Doper apologizes for previous misconduct, how _should_ it be done? 😕 “I’m sorry I was such an ass, **I was wrong** , and I hope you’ll forgive me”, perhaps? Claiming that what he said was true but he’s embarassed that his fiancee will see it, kind of ruins the whole effect, you know? If you’re really sorry, you won’t try and justify your actions. And it involves more than a mere apology – one should also then SHOW they’re sincere, by acting on what they said. You know what they say about actions vs. words? Even if one’s apology sounds absolutely perfect, forgiveness takes _time_. Don’t just say you’re sorry, SHOW it. So as far as I’m concerned, I’ll simply reserve judgement for the time being. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/78 "2020-01-12T10:50:54Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > … along with my mothers and daughters… “Mothers”? Plural? How many do you have? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/79 "2020-01-12T11:28:02Z")
Needing to shield his fiancée, mothers and daughters from his misogynistic behaviour is very telling. Beyond his mincing non apology, his words reveal that these women have value in excess of you other whores. What gives them more value? It is entirely in their relationship to him. They aren’t just any ‘women’, they’re HIS fiancée, daughters, mothers. Almost as though their saving virtue exists solely in being connected to him. These are the ONLY women whose tender feelings deserve consideration or respect. Ugh, how transparently self serving. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200/80 "2020-01-12T13:15:31Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > People can grow and change and I certainly have. I have hurt a whole lot of people in my life even just casually and I vow to stop doing that and be more on the helping side. Respect, and good luck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-give-a-formal-apology-to-the-sdmb/846200.md?page=5)