And yet you’re writing in English. :rolleyes:
Olentzero, his name is Mike K. (won’t let me reveal his last name) and he’s 6’4". And he had Professor Bessonov and Professor Petrochenkov, among others. And he “speaks Russian better than Professor Morris” (he says with a smile).
Not quite sure I’m with you, Daowajan… you wouldn’t be referring to the now-common practice of saying “lay” instead of “lie”, hmmm?
In my college Russian class (took 3 years and spent a summer in Bulgaria), they told us that the State Dept. rates languages on their ease of learning to the native e
English speaker. The highest the scale goes is 5. Arabic and Japanese are considered 5’s. Russian is a 4.
The english speaker finds certain concepts within Russian that are extremely difficult to wrap one’s brain around. For example cases, or the conjugation of nouns. Although there are many borrowed words there are also many “false cognates” – words that sound like a familiar english word but mean something else. The first example I can think of is:
machina = car
Compared to English, Russian is modifyer-light/verb heavy. There are very specific verbs that mean very specific things, unlike in English where you tack on a word or phrase to modify you verb. For example, there is a specific Russian verb that means “I’m stepping out, but I’ll be right back.” Specific verbs indicate foot travel, car travel, one way trips, return trips, trips with a short stop in the middle, etc.
On the bright side, the tenses are extremely simple compared to many other languages.
let me assure you that the alphabet is the least of your troubles, you’ll pick it up quickly and then feel like you’ve mastered a secret code! (the only trick is the letters that look like english letters but have a different sound P=R, H=N etc.)
Remember this key phrase: izvinitye, kooda Amerikanskoye posalstvo? (Excuse me, how do I get to the American Embassy?) 
Can I tell a quick Russian story? I was in Bulgaria on an archaeological dig and we decided to make a brunch for our very nice kitchen staff. They kept trying to help us though. We had some scrubbed potatoes set aside for homefries. On of the kitchen ladies started peeling them. Pulling together all my mad Russian skillz I said (in Russian) “It is not necessary for us to peel the potatoes” and I was understood!
Not ringing any bells, unfortunately. I kinda skipped ahead a couple of years when I started GU (placed into junior-year courses my freshman year) so I didn’t rise through the ranks. You can get my e-mail from my profile below if Mike feels safer sending his name that way.
Hello Again - Better either Kak mne proiti v amerikanskoye posolstvo? or Gde amerikanskoye posolstvo? - kuda means “to where” and wouldn’t be used in asking directions. And I think the rating system you mentioned is more along the lines of rating a speaker’s fluency rather than rating the “difficulty” of languages.
I had no idea there were so many Russian speakers on the Boards! I can’t really add anything at this point (other than, “Hey! I want to learn Russian!”), but I am slowly going through the alphabet. It’s difficult when they actually want you to work when you’re at work! (Say, isn’t that a Russian joke? “I pretend to work, they pretend to pay me.”)
Oh man, my first post can’t be a Yakov Smirnov joke, can it?
Anyway, I noticed yesterday the misuse of the accusative case in “kuda” for the embassy thingie, but someone’s beaten me to the punch on that one. “Nikomu ni nuzhno” such nitpicking anyway, I suppose.
It is obviously a ridiculous statement that ElvisLives made about Russian, and one that wouldn’t be made by anyone with more than a rudimentary knowledge of the language. The “borrowed” words he refers to are the ones that you learn in your first years of Russian, and mainly come from modern/technical terminology (televisor, karparkovat’, etc.). The language itself has a huge lexicon of words dealing with specific nuances of concepts that most if not all other Western languages fail to allot a separate term for (not that this is always a good thing, mind you), and the verb structure, particularly verb of motion, has a complexity that allows the speaker/writer, in one or two syllables, to add to a verb what would take at least separate clause (speaking of too many separate clauses, I should end this sentence now).
Of course, one could point to the borrowed words from Russian as well (kiosk, bistro [this is controversial still, I know], perestroika, glasnost, etc.), but in doing so, one would be opening up a new can of worms. And this one has no time for that right now.
I’m afraid I have to disagree-I think it’s important to learn the naughty words, so that you know what NOT to say, how to tell if someone is swearing at you, and how to avoid making mistakes.
Besides, the book isn’t all swears-it’s also about slang.
True, I suppose, Guin - it’s just that I feel this early in the game you haven’t gotten a feel for the language as a whole. Knowing how to swear before you’ve really mastered the language is kinda dangerous, in my opinion.
And I have seen the book. I just didn’t buy it 'cos I knew most of what was in it anyway. 
Well, wow, Wracket, it’s not every day, even on this board, that something one says is called “obviously ridiculous” and then immediately supported with examples. I don’t know whether to feel offended or congratulated.
Olentzero, you also are retorting huffily to a statement that wasn’t even made. Have you read the post in question in the original English?
Johnny LA, don’t worry about the verbs of motion; they can be learned. This language is actually fun, even if it does seem to attract more than its share of snobs.
OK, Elvis, let’s collect all your statements concerning this subject in one tidy package and go through it that way.
OK, give us some examples. What loanwords are there in Russian that do not have a Russian equivalent, or even a synonym? And I don’t mean scientific/technical terminology, as Wracket pointed out, but everyday concepts that are more or less common to humanity, i.e. stuff that both Pushkin and Solzhenitsyn could be familiar with.
You sure of that? I mean, are you familiar with the complete works of Tolstoy? And if so, please point out concepts that are “more advanced than planting barley” that cannot be expressed except by the use of loanwords.
Then how are we to interpret your statement on Tolstoy above? Furthermore, your comment on the extreme limitedness of Russian vocabulary touches directly on Russian literature. Essentially, you’re saying - and correct me if I’m wrong here - that Russian writers cannot describe, convey, express, or otherwise delineate their experiences, philosophy, or thoughts as Russians in Russian society except by the use of loanwords into Russian.
Just to clarify:
I would like to stress that no language is only fit for agrarian discourse and that any language can accompany its people into the age of philosophy and invention without major upheaval. The Russian society has done this long ago, in fact, and the richness of its literary tradition only exemplifies this point.
My few pathetic attempts to read literary Russian were partially, but certainly not only, foiled due to the vocabulary – Russian is not Esperanto!
I just do not understand the point being made about internationalisms in Russian. The same point could be made for English, and much more strongly, in fact.
I also don’t understand the parallel being made between Russian and German vocabulary. Not much in common there either, I’m afraid!
I agree with the opinions expressed here that the alphabet is quite easy to learn. I also never had a problem with the issues that people typically say are hardest for americans/english speakers to learn – the hard/soft vowels seemed easy to me. the idea of cases and their endings seems wonderful. the Russian language is so much more specific than English. verbs of motion are indeed a ‘bear.’ Something nobody here has mentioned that a LOT of people have trouble with is the perfective/imperfective distinction, which plays such a big part in Russian verbs.
Personally, I took a couple summer courses in HS and then a condensed 3-year program in my first 2 years of college, and it’s been a year since I left school (after spending 2 years there), and I’m at the point now where I can only construct the most elementary sentences, but I understand almost anything that’s said to me.
And I want to second whoever said that Russian is worth knowing just to impress the chicks. Russian girls look good, and they also seem to like Americans that speak their language a lot. And, of course, there’s nothing sexier than English spoken with a Russian accent.
(Side note: Daowajan, this is getting creepy. The first time I made a comment about us going to the same school, I was joking, but my first year Russian teacher was just like how you describe. Weird.)
First, JohnnyLA, good luck learning. Don’t get frustrated. Russian is an absolutely beautiful language and there’s nothing like reading Tolstoy and Pushkin in the original russian, even if they don’t talk about anything other than planting barley. (muttering to self, “What a horse’s ass”)
I’m a military linguist, working in both Russian and Spanish. 12 months, full-time study for the Russian Basic Course and then an additional 9 months for the Advanced Course.
Actually, the language catagory used by the government is based upon how difficult it is for a native english speaker to learn the language and the scale is from 1 to 4.
Cat 1 languages are Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese due to similar alphabets, and grammatical structures.
German is the only Cat 2 language I can think of off the top of my head.
Russian, Polish, Persian-Farsi are Cat 3.
Arabic, Chinese, Korean are Cat 4.
The scale which the government uses which goes from 0 to 5 is the scale of language proficiency. This scale also has half-levels referred to as “plus”, i.e. 0+, 1, 1+, 2, 2+, 3, etc.
A basic explanation:
A zero language ability is me with chinese. No recognition of written characters, no ability to understand anything.
Zero+ is your basic tourist ability. Understands simple street signs, bathroom signs, things like that. When speaking, knows have some phrases which you can parrot, but no actual conversational ability.
A one plus or two level speaker is for example, the average high school student after 4 years of spanish. Conversant in the language, can read most everyday materials and get the gist.When speaking, can get their point across, although may have to speak around the topic due to a limited vocabulary.
A three level linguist is someone who has pretty much attained fluency, for a foreigner. Can read most things, even specialized texts without having any real stumbling blocks. When speaking, makes only minor grammatical errors.
Four and Five levels are into the native speaker area.
It’s kind of a complicated system and language profiency is rated using the Defence Language Proficiency Test.
More info can be found at the website for the Defense Language Institue. http://dli-www.army.mil
This is about the best school for language training. The only catch is that you have to join the military to go there. Or have a whole boat-load of money to attend as a civilian.
(muttering to self: Crap. Did it again. Sound like a damn recruiter.)
Progress report: Not much. Haven’t been able to shoehorn learning into my schedule. Something about needing to work when I’m at work and that sort of thing. But I’ve found I can recite 2/3, and write 1/3 of the alphabet. Doesn’t seem to be as hard as I thought.
I picked up a dictionary yesterday. The better to learn the alphabet, when you want to look things up. Of course, I could not resist looking up dermo and govno (and tovarich, of course). It was a small step in learning to read in Russian.
But I noticed that dermo has a “meerkyis-nakh” seperating the syllables. My information says that this “b” (using the lowercase “b” for the “meerkyis-nakh”, since it looks the same) is silent and modifies other sounds. How does it modify der(b)mo?
we pronounced it something like minyaki-znakh but its the same thing (I’ve actually never seen it written out, so I’m not sure of the correct pronunciation. strtange). It means “soft sign” and it makes the consonant before it “soft” in pronunciation. As far as exactly what this means on a practical level, you need some language tapes or a native speaker to help you hear the difference. IIRC, its fairly common after a n sound, after the l sound, and sometimes the “ch” sound.
As you may know there are hard and soft versions of each vowel O/Yo OO/Yoo, AH/Yah, etc (to remember which is which, use my handy mnemonic: “Ooh! AAH! Oh! That’s Hard!” hehe). Its difficult at first to hear the differences but your ear will tune with practice. Have I mentioned language tapes or a helpful native speaker?
dillrod thanks for clearing up the military system, I had some details mixed up but I was pretty sure about what my Russian profs said!
Wanna hear the only Russian joke I know!? Apprently this is like, a joke a 4 year old Russian child might find funny, if perhaps a bit beneath them.
Q: Shto konchaetcya den ee noch? (what concludes both day and night?)
A: Minyaki znakh! (A soft sign! yuk yuk. both words end in a soft sign)
(raucaous laughter ensues!)
Hello Again, myagkii znak would be a closer transliteration. “Hard sign” is tvyordii znak.
JohnnyLA, the effect is really hard to describe in words, but try slipping a “y” sound inwhere you see the soft sign. Say it very quickly, almost slurred, so there’s no impression of another syllable being stuck in there. It should come out as a very slight trill of the preceding consonant. If you pull the tip of your tongue back slightly at the end of the letter, you’ll be pretty close. Basically, the hard sounds are what a native English speaker would pronounce. It’s easiest to learn if you just have someone speak the hard and soft versions of the syllable to you slowly.
Don’t confuse the soft sign with the hard sign, which is a single letter in 2 unconnected parts that together look like bI instead of b. It doesn’t get used nearly as much, though, other than in the masculine adjective endings, since its function is only to make it clear that the preceding consonant is not soft. It was standard practice before the Bolsheviks’ spelling reforms to write it at the end of every word that ended in a hard consonant, which among other changes makes old Russian text hard to read.
Also, be aware that the basic 5 vowel sounds have both hard and soft versions, making 10 letters. A soft vowel letter’s pronunciation is the soft sign followed by the normal (to us) hard vowel. For instance, the recognizable A is a hard vowel, but the letter that looks like a backwards R is the equivalent soft vowel. The letters are called “Ah” and “Ya”, which is as close as one can get to their real sounds. The soft sign is only written when there is no following vowel to use the soft version of.
You mentioned looking up “govno” - if you meant “gavno”, I could tell another story. Seems Stalin had a Russian speech impediment, being a Georgian, and his hard G and his R sounded alike. When he said “I don’t care”, or Mnyeh vsyo ravno (To me everything is equal), it came out Mnyeh vsyo gavno (To me everything is shit).
Brain cramp: The hard sign looks like a soft sign with a little tail on it at the top. The bI letter is a hard I.
Yeah, I was gonna say. The myakeeznak and the ‘bi’ hard vowel are completely unrelated. the tvyordeeznak is the one that’s the opposite of the myakeeznak and that is barely ever used (after the orthographic revolution of the early 20th century).
other than that, Hello Again is right… you can refer to myakeeznak as ‘soft sound’ and any native Russian speaker that speaks english will know what you’re talking about. Just ask someone… or i’m sure there’s some sort of list in whatever book you’re studying. there are a soft and hard version of every vowel, and each consonant is naturally either hard or soft. the soft sign modifies hard vowels to make them soft. you gotta watch out for the ‘sh’/‘sch’ distinction to… thats the two letters where one looks like a funky ‘W’ and the other is the funky ‘W’ with the tail on it… that’s a toughie. anyway.
I like that but I w ould have used Chyem rather than Shto in the question. This is because you want an answer in the Instrumental case. Shto is for an answer in the Nominative. Therefore, your answer will be Myagkim znakom
Also, transliteration can be r eally tricky and everybody has their own ideas but it’s best to reserve kh as the equivalent of the letter that looks like X. This is like the ch in Scottish loch or German machen. The Russian word for soft sign ends with a k as in cat or kill. So just use k to transliterate k.o
konchatcya takes instrumental padezh?