# I want to offer a contrarian take on this story: BLAME THE WOMAN MOM **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 22, 2021, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686 "2021-05-22T12:46:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/101 "2021-05-23T19:19:57Z")
Listen you fucking shitnugget. A rapist might choose someone with big breasts and a low cut shirt over the person who passed by 5 seconds earlier with a sweater and small breasts. That doesn’t mean that the low cut shirt wearing and the large breast having woman deserves any blame whatsoever. Even if she conscientiously chose the shirt to entice and had implants to increase her breast size hoping to get noticed. The rapist is at fault. 100%. Anyone who says otherwise is a fucking shitnugget. Like you. The fact that you are a shitnugget and have brought your drooling opinion into this turd of a thread is way more bothersome to me than someone flipping me off, but I also don’t believe you should be shot for that. If someone happens to do so, I’ll put 100% of the blame on them. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/102 "2021-05-23T20:06:31Z")
All I know is the shooter’s lawyer would LOVE to have DSeid and KennyT on the jury. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/103 "2021-05-23T20:19:38Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Some here would seem to want to say that the parent is the victim in this scenario, that recognizing the fault involved is both blaming the victim (due to some sick need to blame the victim) and excusing and justifying the preschool teacher’s abuse of the child. No. This scenario and the scenario in the OP aren’t even remotely comparable. Having your child murdered because you flipped someone the bird is such a wildly disproportionate response, no reasonable person could have ever anticipated it. In your fictitious example, abuse wasn’t unlikely, it was in fact probable. Huge difference in parental responsibility there. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/104 "2021-05-23T20:48:33Z")
I’ve read and quoted from the report. She was cut off. She then was in front of the other car flipping him off in her rear view mirror. What happened in between is speculation but somehow she got from behind them to in front of him and flipping him off in her rear view mirror. Then she pulled off to the right was followed from behind and shot at. A gunshot entered the car at the rear trunk, passed through into the back seat, and killed the six year old. Those are the reported facts. It was a road rage incident and she was an active participant in its escalation. Her behavior be it actively working to cut them off back and then flipping at them or just a flip in the first place in no way “justified”anything more than a finger flip back. And knowing that we live in world in which people murder over being told that have to wear a mask in a store, _escalating a road rage incident with a child in the car is irresponsible_. It is hard for me to comprehend how that is even something debatable. > [@Locrian](#): > > All I know is the shooter’s lawyer would LOVE to have DSeid and KennyT on the jury. Given that I would come into the jury having stated that they should be punished to the greatest degree allowed by the law? Okay. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > no reasonable person could have ever anticipated it. I may not be reasonable but I specifically stop myself from acting on a desire to flip off asshole drivers (or try to get ahead of them to cut them off back) out of exactly the thought that there are crazy people with guns on the road, they are often among people who drive nuts, and that it is not worth it. I recognize the risk is small but I recognize it as a real risk for no real gain. I stop myself from acting on the impulse driving alone let alone if there were minor children with me. You don’t think that’s reasonable. I think we all should. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/105 "2021-05-23T20:57:25Z")
so what if she just honked at him and the same happened? I’ve been in cars where someone else almost caused an accident and my driver honked a to we wouldn’t get smashed and then was flipped off by the offending driver … ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/106 "2021-05-23T21:05:47Z")
Honking defensively is not escalating a road rage incident. Are posters here really unaware that violent road rage episodes happen and happen more and more often? The article below makes some good points. [https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ktvu.com/news/road-rage-fatalities-increased-500-percent-over-10-years-and-theyre-still-on-the-rise-study-says.amp](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ktvu.com/news/road-rage-fatalities-increased-500-percent-over-10-years-and-theyre-still-on-the-rise-study-says.amp) To me it is unreasonable to be ignorant of this risk. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/107 "2021-05-23T21:25:34Z")
This idea, the idea that women are responsible for creating the environment that allows them to be abused, is a time-honored tool of misogynistic oppression. “He wouldn’t have raped you if you hadn’t worn that dress” “He wouldn’t hit you if if you didn’t keep pissing him off” And that last one is wrong no matter WHAT pissed the guy off. If he’s hitting her because she can’t fold the towels right, it’s not her fault. If he hits her because she’s sleeping around, it’s still not her fault. I have no obligation to modify my behavior because you can’t control yours. I have no obligation not to provoke you. Anger is not bad or wrong. People should be careful about how they express their anger, but raising your middle finger to someone is a fairly mild and harmless -and absolutely legal- form of expression. Yes, it’s impolite, but so is cutting someone off in traffic. And no one has an obligation to be polite to someone that’s impolite to them. Not even a woman. Because that’s the disturbing undertone here, the implication that this woman is responsible for the death of her son because she was being unladylike, that she had some sort of gender related obligation to deescalate the situation. Fuck that and fuck everyone on the wrong side of the conversation - you’re engaging in some really wife-beater thinking and I’m surprised you gave the OP the time of day after that misogynistic word salad about hypocritical cussing women accusing people rape in feminist vehicles. BTW I don’t think flipping off another driver qualifies as road rage, and I don’t even think it’s particularly wrong, even if June Cleaver would find it unseemly. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/108 "2021-05-23T21:52:17Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > BTW I don’t think flipping off another driver qualifies as road rage, and I don’t even think it’s particularly wrong, even if June Cleaver would find it unseemly. Agreed. Blowing a raspberry is more offensive due to the possibility of unwanted saliva being transferred. I use the finger a lot, but not when driving. (I just give the sarcastic wave. 😃 ) But this shooting is entirely ridiculous and over-the-top. Equivalent to a dog peeing on your lawn and burning down the pet owner’s house. Any leads on the shooter yet? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/109 "2021-05-23T21:58:19Z")
The misogynistic OP is one thing but the actual event, do you think it has anything to do with gender? That the murderer was motivated to shoot because it was a woman who flipped them off and would have not done so had it been a man? Rather than straightforward angry sociopath ready to explode at any perceived challenge? The fact that so many, men and women, think that, at least from the anonymous position of driving, flipping some unknown person off is not particularly wrong or risky is in my mind contributory to the cited increase in road rage deaths. They are angry drivers interacting with other angry drivers. It is best to just not risk engaging with aggressive other drivers. Man woman or fluid. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/110 "2021-05-23T22:21:37Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I have no obligation to modify my behavior because you can’t control yours. I have no obligation not to provoke you. Anger is not bad or wrong. People should be careful about how they express their anger, but raising your middle finger to someone is a fairly mild and harmless -and absolutely legal- form of expression. Yes, it’s impolite, but so is cutting someone off in traffic. And no one has an obligation to be polite to someone that’s impolite to them. Not even a woman. > > Because that’s the disturbing undertone here, the implication that this woman is responsible for the death of her son because she was being unladylike, that she had some sort of gender related obligation to deescalate the situation. > > Fuck that and fuck everyone on the wrong side of the conversation - you’re engaging in some really wife-beater thinking and I’m surprised you gave the OP the time of day after that misogynistic word salad about hypocritical cussing women accusing people rape in feminist vehicles. > > BTW I don’t think flipping off another driver qualifies as road rage, and I don’t even think it’s particularly wrong, even if June Cleaver would find it unseemly. YES! Especially the last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/111 "2021-05-23T22:47:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It is best to just not risk engaging with aggressive other drivers. Man woman or fluid. Exactly the standard that justifies rapists, domestic abusers, spree killers, war criminals. Every fucking day, billions of people do things that are not “best” according to some arbitrary standard. That people shoot, beat, rape and bomb them as a “result” is on the shooter, beater, rapist and bomber. To everyone except the kind of self-centered, moralistic, control freak who fantasizes about violently imposing their will on others. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/112 "2021-05-23T22:50:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It is best to just not risk engaging with aggressive other drivers. Man woman or fluid. I agree that it’s “best” and conduct myself accordingly, but that does not mean the flipper bears any responsibility for what the flippee chooses to do in retaliation. People are responsible for their _own_ actions. Since people keep bringing up rape, consider that drinking alcohol statistically increases one’s chance of being raped, but the victim is in no way “partly responsible” for being raped, whether they were drinking or not. It is possible, I think, to establish best practices without blaming the victim. As an aside, this is an instance of a growing problem in US society which has been documented by social psychologists for decades : retaliatory aggression. As the general population becomes more narcissistic, it also becomes more likely to respond disproportionately to perceived slights. This is evident in road rage, cyber bullying/harassment, and the current state of the GOP. > **[Sound the Alarm: The Effect of Narcissism on Retaliatory Aggression is...](https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4492910/)** > > Narcissists behave aggressively when their egos are threatened by interpersonal insults. This effect has been explained in terms of narcissist’s motivation to reduce the discrepancy between their grandiose self and its threatened version, though no... ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/113 "2021-05-23T23:21:17Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Okay, you’re officially the biggest fuckwit on these boards right now. In this thread at least, and given the OP that’s a big accomplishment. I mean, wow. What a dipshit. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/114 "2021-05-23T23:37:19Z")
It’s classic shitpicker behavior. They walk though the door and see everyone else holding their nose and backing away from the center of the room. Curious, they stride confidently to the middle and find a big pile of fresh shit. Do they also back away? No no no they are freethinking rationalists unlike the rest of the sheep, so they peer closer and start picking kernels of corn from the shit and start eating it. At this point they act shocked that everyone else is gagging in revulsion, and then deeply offended when others refuse the offer of tasty nutritious corn. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/115 "2021-05-24T00:29:18Z")
Especially since it’s not actually corn: it’s corn kernel bran, filled with shit. ---
**Author:** ![icon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@icon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/icon)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/116 "2021-05-24T01:34:40Z")
To me the thing that I don’t understand is how cutting someone else off is not, in itself, causing danger to the person being cut off. Maybe I am not understanding what that means, but from my perspective, this is actually the dangerous part. If you are not quick enough in your reflexes to slow down so as not to hit the person who just cut in front of you, then you end up in an accident that hurts you and any of your passengers. From the way some people are reacting, it is is just akin to cutting in line at a grocery store not, as is always the case, putting a several ton vehicle directly in front of another moving at speed. Saying that someone just cut them off as if that is something trivial is really bothersome, because cutting someone off means putting many people in danger of death or serious injury. `//i\\` ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/117 "2021-05-24T01:52:28Z")
> [@icon](#): > > To me the thing that I don’t understand is how cutting someone else off is not, in itself, causing danger to the person being cut off. I don’t think any is saying otherwise. Of course, based on our current knowledge, the person doing the “cutting off” was also the person doing the “shooting at a fucking car with humans in it”, so we’re understandably more concerned with the latter. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/118 "2021-05-24T01:54:28Z")
> [@naita](#): > > It should be odious, to get people to react, but not so odious not a single sole will join you and keep the “reactors” reacting. I would have agreed with you based on that OP, yet here we are. 🤮 ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/119 "2021-05-24T02:09:28Z")
This thread would have been dead 100 posts ago if a long-time poster didn’t decide to white-knight for the troll so extremely that he’s actually surpassed the troll in stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686/120 "2021-05-24T02:21:21Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > This idea, the idea that women are responsible for creating the environment that allows them to be abused, is a time-honored tool of misogynistic oppression. > > “He wouldn’t have raped you if you hadn’t worn that dress” > > “He wouldn’t hit you if if you didn’t keep pissing him off” > > And that last one is wrong no matter WHAT pissed the guy off. If he’s hitting her because she can’t fold the towels right, it’s not her fault. If he hits her because she’s sleeping around, it’s still not her fault. > > I have no obligation to modify my behavior because you can’t control yours. I have no obligation not to provoke you. Anger is not bad or wrong. People should be careful about how they express their anger, but raising your middle finger to someone is a fairly mild and harmless -and absolutely legal- form of expression. Yes, it’s impolite, but so is cutting someone off in traffic. And no one has an obligation to be polite to someone that’s impolite to them. Not even a woman. > > Because that’s the disturbing undertone here, the implication that this woman is responsible for the death of her son because she was being unladylike, that she had some sort of gender related obligation to deescalate the situation. > > Fuck that and fuck everyone on the wrong side of the conversation - you’re engaging in some really wife-beater thinking and I’m surprised you gave the OP the time of day after that misogynistic word salad about hypocritical cussing women accusing people rape in feminist vehicles. > > BTW I don’t think flipping off another driver qualifies as road rage, and I don’t even think it’s particularly wrong, even if June Cleaver would find it unseemly. This. And also, why the hell does it even matter that her kid was in the car? I mean, obviously it matters that some psycho killed her kid, but why do you have some special obligation to drive differently because your kid is with you? You should always drive safely, so as not to kill yourself or some innocent other person. And people being human won’t always drive totally and completely safely. But I don’t get why having the kid in the car is even relevant to whether she should flip the guy off. (And I’m on team “flipping someone off is fairly mild and non-violent.”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-want-to-offer-a-contrarian-take-on-this-story-blame-the-woman-mom/942686.md?page=7)