I want to pit chiropractors

[DrDeth]

@Monty

This is supposedly one of the best (maybe just “better” now) chiropractic training schools. Let’s see what they have to say about chiropractic:
The most polite word I can find for all that is Bullshit.

I have a rather enlightened Chiro and here’s what he said:“back pain is one of the most insidious and long lasting pains you can have, reaching into every facet of your life. It’s hard to exercise or get good sleep and the lack of sleep and exercise has been shown conclusively to have severe effects on your health. Pain causes stress, which has also been shown to effect your health. So, to me yes, “all chiropractic does is relieve back pain” but relieving back pain can help your overall health in so many ways”. That’s a good Chiro.

[nearwildheaven]

@GrumpyBunny

Monty: total agreement.

My body is more frequently a village idiot than “an intelligent self-developing, self-maintaining and self-healing organism”. I’m talking to YOU, migraines!

I have a friend who, 20-plus years ago, had chronic disabling migraines, and at the time didn’t have health insurance or the money to pursue further diagnosis or treatment. She saw an ad in the paper from the school soliciting people from the community to come in for a free adjustment, to train chiropractic students, and she figured she had nothing to lose, so she went there.

She never had another migraine. :eek: I don’t know what they did to her, but it worked, and yes, she has continued to see one.

[nearwildheaven]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

There is no good reason to go to a chiropractor unless you’ve tried (literally) everything else and it hasn’t worked. For non-spinal injuries, there is no reason to go to a chiropractor at all - and even for those there is one very good reason not to go: chiropractic manipulation can really fuck you up if you have a herniated disk.

My mother GOT a herniated disk from an adjustment. This put her in the hospital for a week (and I was a baby at the time) and caused her health problems for many years.

[nearwildheaven]

@DrDeth

I have a rather enlightened Chiro and here’s what he said:“back pain is one of the most insidious and long lasting pains you can have, reaching into every facet of your life. It’s hard to exercise or get good sleep and the lack of sleep and exercise has been shown conclusively to have severe effects on your health. Pain causes stress, which has also been shown to effect your health. So, to me yes, “all chiropractic does is relieve back pain” but relieving back pain can help your overall health in so many ways”. That’s a good Chiro.

And this is what it’s for.

I had some ongoing back pain a while back, and my physician, who’s a DO, did an “adjustment” on me. It really helped me.

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

I keep thinking someone wants to pit chiroptera.

[BrainGlutton]

@Octarine

I put chiropractors in the same general class as acupuncturists. Yeah, there’s probably a bit more science backing what they do than the straight out “feel the spiritual vibrations” woo doctors, but the majority of them ascribe more power to their practice than they should.

I don’t know of any science backing acupuncture.

[xenophon41]

@nearwildheaven

@DrDeth

I have a rather enlightened Chiro and here’s what he said:“back pain is one of the most insidious and long lasting pains you can have, reaching into every facet of your life. It’s hard to exercise or get good sleep and the lack of sleep and exercise has been shown conclusively to have severe effects on your health. Pain causes stress, which has also been shown to effect your health. So, to me yes, “all chiropractic does is relieve back pain” but relieving back pain can help your overall health in so many ways”. That’s a good Chiro.

And this is what it’s for.

I had some ongoing back pain a while back, and my physician, who’s a DO, did an “adjustment” on me. It really helped me.

But this goes back to Ambivalid’s point (AIUI): If the qualities which make a chiropractor “enlightened” and effective at the limited mission of relieving or controlling back pain involve rejection of most standard chiropractic principles and practices, just to approach parity with a good physical therapist, why would anyone choose to consult them if there are professionals available whose “discipline” is not based entirely on woo?

[BrainGlutton]

RationalWiki on chiropractic.

Chiropractic is the theory and practice of correction of “vertebral subluxation processes” to treat and cure a supposedly vast array of diseases with no scientifically verified connection to vertebral anatomy. Basically, this means cracking the spine in several places because the spine, being the centre of all nerves in the body, is connected to everything; this somehow enables the body to magically heal itself. It was developed in the late 19th century by D.D. Palmer, just before the development of modern medical education in the United States and the shift towards evidence-based medical practice.

Chiropractic is analogous to osteopathy, but where osteopathy chose to join the mainstream, following the scientific consensus on theories of disease, human physiology and so on, to the point that there is little functional difference between a DO and an MD in everyday practice, chiropractic chose instead to cling to outdated and wrong theories. Some chiropractors have now started to step back from these, but the majority still appear to support the nonsensical “chiropractic subluxation,” the empirically unverifiable misalignment of the back that Palmer claimed caused disease and which medical science knows does not.

The scientific consensus is that chiropractic manipulation may be as effective as other forms of manual therapy for lower back pain, but that there is a known and documented risk of death due to chiropractic manipulation of the neck.[1][2]

As well as occasionally killing or disabling its patients (something about which it is in complete denial),[3] the chiropractic profession is notorious for recommending, often with dire warnings, indefinite courses of treatment — where a physiotherapist will try to restore function and discharge a fit patient, a chiropractor will tend to try to keep the patient coming back indefinitely. Much chiropractic continuing education is focused on “practice building” — i.e., sales technique.

So, chiropractic works about as well as mainstream physiotherapy for some conditions, claims to treat conditions it can’t, has a tendency to try to bleed you dry, and might kill you. The phrase “not recommended” sums this up nicely.

RationalWiki on acupuncture.

Acupuncture is a traditional Chinese therapy based on sticking needles into the dermis at precise points. Acupuncture is often described as “gateway woo”[1] because of the increasing number of scientists and medical centers accepting it as respectable treatment.

While many doctors don’t believe in chi or meridians, it is widely believed that acupuncture is more effective than randomly stabbing someone with needles while telling them it helps, despite a serious lack of quality randomized clinical trials and a nearly completely-unknown mechanism of action.[2] This belief is apparently because needles have less of a “magic” vibe than other forms of woo. Despite spending considerable sums of money, acupuncture researchers have yet to show consistent, statistically significant, and relevant effects in proper clinical trials.[3] Although a few small-sample (case, or case series) studies including an n=57 randomized placebo-controlled study from 2009 suggest acupuncture can increase fertility in infertile patients [4], as later editorials and papers asserted, these results, “should be considered preliminary awaiting further supporting evidence,”[5] and, “[t]he current evidence showing that acupuncture might improve poor semen quality is insufficient because of the small number of studies, inadequacy of procedures and/or insufficient information for semen analysis, high levels of heterogeneity, high risk of bias, and poor quality of reporting. Further large, well-designed RCTs are required.”[6]

<snip>

Efficacy

Sticking needles into people can cause the release into the bloodstream of endorphins and natural steroids such as cortisol. The medical version of this is called intramuscular stimulation and is of some use in the management of chronic pain. Acupuncture, to the extent it works, seems to do so in this manner. The pain relief from acupuncture seems to be mediated solely through the release of endorphins, as any perceived analgesic effect is reduced or eliminated when the patient has been pretreated with an opioid antagonist such as naloxone.[10] However, the few supposed studies that show efficacy have been criticized for poor design, poor analysis and poor results.[11] In fact, if acupuncture were held to the same standards as all other medications and drugs, the poor quality of the studies would have prevented it from ever being approved for use by the FDA.[12]

As to the wider claims of acupuncturists, it seems on the face of it unlikely, given the unscientific basis of their claims, that they can have much effect on a patient’s physiology by manipulating the flow of a non-existent substance around imaginary meridians. JREF noted that in studies using “no needles vs needles,” the methodology of the study is an important consideration. [13]

However, a recent study using an MRI to view brain activity during an acupuncture session found that specific acupuncture points have distinct effects on cerebral activity in specific areas that are not otherwise predictable anatomically.[14]

It is noticeable that acupuncturists tend chiefly to advertise their abilities to treat precisely those ailments which are chronic but intermittently better or worse (headaches, acne), or which have a strong psychosomatic element (impotence, asthma), or which are guaranteed to clear up rapidly anyway (the common cold), and are therefore are profiting from the placebo effect and regression to the mean.[15]

It has also been found that far from curing disease, acupuncture has been a transmission agent for hepatitis C, MRSA, Staphylococcus aureus and acupuncture mycobacteriosis.[16]

[Octarine]

nm

[Octarine]

OK, fair enough. I always assumed that acupuncture’s placebo effect (being in a quiet room, etc), was worth a shot - I wasn’t aware of the potential side effects. I guess anything involving large amounts of needles being positioned on your back should be avoided.

[Fallen]

I can’t imagine it’s total woo, because manipulation, etc. can relieve nerve impingement and what not, yes? But there’s far too much woo and quackery, so I would only see a medical professional with proper creds that I’ve checked out. Keep in mind that no matter whether a person is a “professional” who has X certifications and degrees, you can’t exclusive rely on those certs-degrees to assess ability, and must realize this person is no more or less likely to be good at what they do for a living than anyone else. Due diligence is important. Or you can just trust and take your chances.

[The_Second_Stone]

@nearwildheaven

I have a friend who, 20-plus years ago, had chronic disabling migraines, and at the time didn’t have health insurance or the money to pursue further diagnosis or treatment. She saw an ad in the paper from the school soliciting people from the community to come in for a free adjustment, to train chiropractic students, and she figured she had nothing to lose, so she went there.

She never had another migraine. :eek: I don’t know what they did to her, but it worked, and yes, she has continued to see one.

I’ve known a number of people that chiropractors have helped with back pain and headaches. I’ve known a number of people that haven’t been helped by seeing a chiropractor.

I’ve also known a number of people that have seen and been treated by doctors for a great number of diseases, including cancer. As an example, let’s take cancer. Everybody in my who gets radiation and chemo incurs enormous costs. Most eventually die of cancer, very painfully. That doesn’t mean that the doctors they saw are quacks. Surgical accidents don’t mean doctors are quacks.

If chiropractic treatment helps you, then use it. For no more than two months. If it doesn’t, then don’t, or go to another chiropractor.

I lived from age 15 to 33 with severe back pain that would flare up several times a year. Thereafter, I have been without back pain. One of the things I think helped was seeing a chiropractor. Another was regular use of a massage chair or massage therapist.

None of my views on this constitute science.

However the National Institute of Health has done studies which support the limited use of chiropractic: Chiropractic: In Depth

I know a chiropractor who gets referrals from Kaiser Hospital in Walnut Creek, CA.

I have been to a number of chiropractors, and they differ in what they do, and the skill with which they do it. You want someone who is gentle and who will relax you before doing any kind of adjustment. Not all chiropractors use “cracking” adjustments.

[Jackmannii]

@The_Second_Stone

I’ve known a number of people that chiropractors have helped with back pain and headaches. I’ve known a number of people that haven’t been helped by seeing a chiropractor.

I’ve also known a number of people that have seen and been treated by doctors for a great number of diseases, including cancer. As an example, let’s take cancer. Everybody in my who gets radiation and chemo incurs enormous costs. Most eventually die of cancer, very painfully.

Hard to know where to start on this semi-coherent response.

First of all, back pain and headaches are often self-limiting conditions. They frequently seem to respond to treatment, or no treatment at all. If you go see a chiropractor (or a physical therapist, a massage therapist or a physician) during the worst of your pain, it often happens that you’ll feel better within a short time simply because the symptoms were due to let up for awhile (this is known as regression to the mean, and is an important factor in conditions that wax and wane). Good studies look beyond this, and the best research is not very favorable toward chiropractic’s efficacy in dealing with chronic pain. Take for instance this paper looking at systematic reviews of spinal manipulation for back pain:

“We have previously shown that the conclusions of (systematic reviews of spinal manipulation)for back pain appear to be influenced by authorship and methodological quality. Osteopaths or chiropractors tend to publish low methodological quality systematic reviews associated with positive conclusions (Table 3 and 4). Seven (38%) of the 18 SRs published either by chiropractors or osteopaths arrived at overtly positive conclusions and 11 (62%) arrived at negative or equivocal conclusions. Twenty four (88%) of the 27 SRs by independent research groups reached negative or equivocal conclusions. Only three (12%) arrived at positive conclusions.”

https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal/read-the-journal/all-issues/2010-2019/2011/vol-124-no-1340/article-posadzki

It is somewhere beyond inane to compare chiropractic treatment of pain with physician treatment of cancer, which does NOT variably get better and worse, and is not something within the scope of chiropractic (though some nitwit chiros, other woo practitioners and their enablers think otherwise). People who think that cancer care is confined to radiation and chemotherapy need to educate themselves on advances in targeted drugs and immunotherapy, which have started to revolutionize cancer care. It is also crap to say that “Most eventually die of cancer, very painfully.” It ignores advances in treating a number of cancers that were formerly death sentences but now can be cured or held at bay for many years. Something evidence-based medicine is pretty good at (and alt med terrible at) is providing compassionate end-of-life care to reduce pain and other distressing symptoms. I doubt highly that chiros are obtaining outstanding success in treating bone pain of patients with metastatic cancer.

Sorry to get on that soapbox again, but I’m tired of hearing uninformed nonsense comparing alt med’s miserable record in treating cancer with that of mainstream medicine.

[Green_Bean]

@Soylent_Juicy

But then I discovered the chiropractor I see now and he fixed me. I’ve been seeing him for 11 years now. It took a few more visits at the beginning, but I see him every other week and my back pain is gone. My painful and jaw-locking TMJ was eradicated years ago.

So that’s the issue, IMO. It’s not chiropractors in general, it’s finding the right one that works for you. And being aware of the scam ones.

So you’ve seen the guy 300 times for pain that you don’t have? And that’s not a scam?

You know, I have a great looking bridge for sale in Brooklyn if you’re interested.

[owlfan]

Thanks for all the replies. I knew this would be the place to come for amusement and insight. So many people I work with love their chiropractors and I wanted to hear from people who aren’t taken in by woo.

[Kropotkin]

Some chiropractors are now using laser treatments because, um, lasers!:dubious:

[Monty]

@Kropotkin

Some chiropractors are now using laser treatments because, um, lasers!:dubious:

I wonder how they’re going to explain away the reason that chiropractic doesn’t work to cure the burn when they finally manage to burn someone with a laser.

Speaking of mechanical devices used by chiropractors, what is that thing that’s hooked up to the patient’s back and, basically, is a bunch of tiny jackhammers knocking on the patient? What’s the (supposed) theory behind its use? What (supposed) benefit does it provide? I mean, what benefit to the patient, not to the chiropractor.

[Hilarity_N.Suze]

@bump

All of which could have been accomplished in a lot less sketchy fashion by a MD in conjunction with a physical therapist, although it sounds like your MD just went straight for surgery. Did he give you any reason for not going with a less aggressive treatment at first?

Yeah. I was pregnant. It was no big deal, therefore not worthy of any treatment at all.

[Hilarity_N.Suze]

@bump

All of which could have been accomplished in a lot less sketchy fashion by a MD in conjunction with a physical therapist, although it sounds like your MD just went straight for surgery. Did he give you any reason for not going with a less aggressive treatment at first?

As I mentioned, the first MD didn’t think it was any big deal. I mean, shit, I was pregnant, of course I had a backache. No reason to probe further, right? Just suck it up, never mind that I couldn’t sit, stand, or lie down. (I was okay in the swimming pool. I spent a lot of time there.)

In fact, the MD wanted to do an MRI before doing an x-ray. He didn’t give a reason, but I think he had some interest in the MRI facility and wanted to get patients in there. He also suggested some pain pills but I was breastfeeding.

The first MD, my OB, didn’t do anything at all because apparently, debilitating back pain is an expected part of pregnancy. Now this was my third pregnancy and I hadn’t had this kind of pain before, and never mind that I couldn’t sit, stand, or lie down without pain. I was okay in the swimming pool. I spent a lot of time there.

So far we have MDs 0 for 2, Chiro 1 for 1. The chiro did not make me feel better, he gave me a road map to feel better. The MDs, both of them, did jack shit.

I don’t know why people here think MDs are fucking gods. Half of them were in the bottom of their graduating class, and some of them are even wooier than some of your chiropractors. I worked for a hospital and one of them gave out dxs based on his magic 8 ball. I have noticed that once you get into things that MDs have trouble healing, such as back pain and foot problems, they are really happy to hand you off to a lesser practitioner. Especially if you object to being cut open.

Dr. Oz is an MD, correct?

[Monty]

I don’t see where you’re getting the idea that posters here think medical doctors are deities. What you should be noticing is that posters here are aware that medical science, as opposed to chiropractic, is science-based.