A violation of their agreement is a problem. Bring it to the manager.
I can’t charge some of my clients my usual fee for psychotherapy. My vendor agreement with the VA, e.g., specifies a maximum payout for the service I render, and I may not charge the veteran any balance between what the VA pays and what I think I ought to make. If I don’t like that, I don’t get to disregard it. I need to end my contract with the VA.
[QUOTE=Small British Shop Owner]
How honest am I permitted to be in the forum regarding my opinion of the original poster?
[/QUOTE]
Let me guess: you’d prefer it if your customers minded their own business and let you get away with whatever dishonest or unethical practices you might choose to engage in because following the rules eats into your profit margin?
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
You see it as your right as a customer to pay in a way that costs the merchant money and reduces profit but you refer to the merchants act of passing that cost on to you as ripping you off.
[/quote]
I can’t speak for the OP, but I don’t mind if they pass that cost on. But if they want to abide by their Visa merchant agreement, they’ll have to add 10 cents to every cone, instead of 25 cents to every credit card cone. Is that fair to the cash customers? Probably not, but it’s what happens at every other merchant who abides by their agreement with the CC companies. The only difference is that most places, the cash customers don’t stop to consider the fact that they’re subsidizing the CC transactions.
Yes it’s petty to report them, but I say it should be done. As someone else posted, if you let them get away with the little things, they’ll move on to the big things. Fact is, they have an agreement, and they’re violating it, to the detriment of a portion of their customers. Yes those customers cost them extra money…but by that logic, you might as well charge them extra if they use the restroom.
Again, don’t know the OP’s specifics, but it could have been a debit card. Or he could be like me: I have a credit card I charge nearly every single monthly transaction on. Then i pay it off each month with the cash I would have used on those purchases. It’s the same net result as using cash the whole time, but this way I earn points towards rewards. Getting free plane tickets or golf clubs every so often is a nice perk, and having traceable, itemized records of my daily expenses is not a bad thing, either. So I’m one of those people who might be paying for ice cream on a credit card. Any other questions?
I’m sure that writing the OP took more time and effort than lodging a complaint through the card issuer. Check if they have an online complaint form, and just paste in the relevant portions of your complaint from the OP.
Go ahead and accept the extra fee on your charge. Then do a chargeback through Visa for the whole purchase. Like the business’s responsibilities under the merchant contract with Visa, your responsibilities under the purchase contract are optional.
[QUOTE=Drum God]
Yesterday, I got ice cream at a place in the mall. After the purchase was totalled up (at more than $13 for the four of us!), I handed my Visa card to the kid at the register. She politely told me that there was a 25 cent charge for using credit cards.
[/QUOTE]
I would have let the $13 dollars of ice cream there and refused to pay. That will cost them 52 customers @ 25 cents. :mad:
Here’s what I’d do now:
2a. If a chain, cc it to the CEO
2b. If not a chain, cc to Mall management.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
(Credit card) service and the industry that supports it costs money to maintain. Why should you the customer who wants that service think it shouldn’t cost you anything? That’s a totally unrealistic expectation and frankly a bit selfish.
[/QUOTE]
Stores benefit greatly from credit cards, because customers buy things they would not otherwise purchase due to a lack of available cash. The customer in most cases already pays for the privilege of using credit through interest on credit card accounts. Too bad if the store owner pays for the privilege of taking credit card purchases as well.
In regard to the OP, I’d quite possibly have walked rather than paying a store transection fee and e-mailed Visa about it, as well as contacting the store management if I felt it worth the effort.
Well, what a lively discussion.
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield]
Why are you paying for ice-cream with a credit card anyway?
[/QUOTE]
The card in questionwas actually a debit card. It carries the Visa logo and hologram and does not require a PIN to use. In fact, I signed a normal charge slip (and zeroed the tip line). The service was pretty shabby anyway.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Now we want convenience that costs the merchant extra money and the banks money, but we still don’t think it should cost extra.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure that’s quite fair. The debit card I used is linked to my primary checking account. I have a pile of money in there (not huge, but it’s what we’ve got). I also have three other deposit accounts at this bank. There are enough fees involved here to pay for convenience. It is also a convenience to the bank. If I had written a check for the ice cream, my bank would have had to pay for the check processing. It would have taken longer for the merchant to get his money. So, both the bank and the merchant lose. Of course, the merchant chose not to accept checks (which is fine). I could have withdrawn cash from a nearby ATM, thereby incurring more fees and involving yet another bank.
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia]
Yes, you should report them. Pleasant local small businesses are a plague, and we should all assist Visa in its efforts to destroy them by taking a bite out of their already razor thin profit margins.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure I understand where you’re coming from. The shop’s profit margin might be razor thin, but I don’t know what Visa has to do with that. The franchise owner may be a small local business owner, but he threw his lot in with the big boys. His ice cream shop is part of a very large, well-known national chain. The mall itself is managed by a large, multi-national corporation which manages commerical properties all over the world. If he didn’t like the business climate, maybe he shouldn’t have gotten in bed with these folks.
[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Go ahead and accept the extra fee on your charge. Then do a chargeback through Visa for the whole purchase. Like the business’s responsibilities under the merchant contract with Visa, your responsibilities under the purchase contract are optional.
[/QUOTE]
Now that’s funny. Fortunately, my values won’t allow such a thing. How this franchisee handles his business does not affect how I handle mine. I pay for what I purchase. If I couldn’t afford the ice cream, I shouldn’t have gone there. He may be a cheat, but I’m not. (I know you weren’t really suggesting this course of action.)
[QUOTE=Jackmanii]
Stores benefit greatly from credit cards, because customers buy things they would not otherwise purchase due to a lack of available cash. The customer in most cases already pays for the privilege of using credit through interest on credit card accounts. Too bad if the store owner pays for the privilege of taking credit card purchases as well.
[/QUOTE]
I could not agree more. In fact, that is what brought us to this store in the first place. I knew we were going to the mall, but I did not know what all we were going to buy. The ice cream was mostly an impulse buy. I am not in the habit of cashing out hundreds of dollars to go to the mall and then returning the unused money to our checking account upon return. This seems to me to be a horribly inefficient way to handle money. Had this shop not accepted Visa, we would have found a shop that did. Had this shop posted its unethical practices more plainly, we would have found a shop that conducted its business properly. (The sign mentioning the 25 cent surcharge was very small and in an obscure place on the menu. I never saw it – my wife mentioned it later.)
[QUOTE=Jackmanii]
In regard to the OP, I’d quite possibly have walked rather than paying a store transection fee…
[/QUOTE]
Had I been alone, I might have done that. However, the girl waiting on us was sooooo slow, by the time the last ice cream was served, the first ice cream was almost completely eaten. Besides, it’s not like I could have taken the ice cream away from my kids. Or my wife. Who was already a bit annoyed with me anyway (for something unrelated to the ice cream). Ditching the ice cream was not an option at that point.
There was a time, not so long ago, when using a CC for small purchases was seen as somewhat irresponsible and troublesome. This has changed, especially w/ the introduction of the debit card. The trend is toward a truely “cashless” society. It seems to me, given those circumstances, the fees associated w/ the use of CC’s, or debit cards, is part of the business’s overhead and should be reflected in the pricing of goods and services, not added on as a surcharge. As has been pointed out, it’s probably cheaper, for the retailer, to do debit transactions, and maybe even CC transactions, than it is to accept cash only. It increases sales, as people tend to buy things w/ a card, that they might not buy w/ cash. It also probably cuts down on errors and theft associated w/ having employees handling cash. I think I’d report the guy, just on principle.
[QUOTE=Drum God]
The card in questionwas actually a debit card.
[/QUOTE]
I certainly inferred from the OP that it was a credit card:
Did you ever try telling the kid at the register that it was a debit card, not a credit card? Would that have made a difference?
And, just for clarification, was there any way you could have known about the $0.25 before the cashier told you about it at payment time (like a sign or something)?
[QUOTE=aerodave]
I can’t speak for the OP, but I don’t mind if they pass that cost on. But if they want to abide by their Visa merchant agreement, they’ll have to add 10 cents to every cone, instead of 25 cents to every credit card cone. Is that fair to the cash customers? Probably not, but it’s what happens at every other merchant who abides by their agreement with the CC companies. The only difference is that most places, the cash customers don’t stop to consider the fact that they’re subsidizing the CC transactions.
Yes it’s petty to report them, but I say it should be done. As someone else posted, if you let them get away with the little things, they’ll move on to the big things. Fact is, they have an agreement, and they’re violating it, to the detriment of a portion of their customers. Yes those customers cost them extra money…but by that logic, you might as well charge them extra if they use the restroom.
[/QUOTE]
No doubt some merchants might be just plain greedy and yes they are technically violating a business agreement but in reality the CC companies probably don’t plan on enforcing that detail of the agreement even if you report it.
It will vary from merchant to merchant but it irks me that consumers get so outraged of merchants trying to find ways to defray expenses. Let them make the call. If it truly hurts their business and they see it they’ll change the policy. I also wonder why people can’t have a little compassion for their local merchant and direct a little outrage at the CC companies.
You can’t point to another store that doesn’t charge and judge that way. There are lots of other factors. Perhaps one store does enough annual business to absorb the cost or perhaps the owner owns a string of stores and that defrays the cost. What about the business that is family owned?
Those perks are offered for a reason and are not free. You pay with a CC and cut profit for a small business so you can get your “free” golf clubs. That’s your choice. The CC companies offer those perks specifically to steer you in that direction. Why shouldn’t the merchant be allowed to steer purchases as well? You want airline miles along with your ice cream? That will be another 25 cents please.
[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
Stores benefit greatly from credit cards, because customers buy things they would not otherwise purchase due to a lack of available cash. The customer in most cases already pays for the privilege of using credit through interest on credit card accounts. Too bad if the store owner pays for the privilege of taking credit card purchases as well.
In regard to the OP, I’d quite possibly have walked rather than paying a store transection fee and e-mailed Visa about it, as well as contacting the store management if I felt it worth the effort.
[/QUOTE]
How greatly they benefit does vary from store to store. The problem is as more people use credit cards for minor purchases like ice cream the cost to profit ratio for small business rises. It not just too bad for them. They ought to have the right to decide how to operate their own business. Why would people not object to CC companies making giant profits and manipulating the laws a regulations to do so but begrudge the small business owner? I just don’t get it. I’d rather see my local merchant make the money and stay open or even expand rather than force them to pay more to some mega bank that will charge me $35 dollars if I forget and am 1 day late or go $1 dollar over.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
They ought to have the right to decide how to operate their own business.
[/QUOTE]
They do. If they don’t like the terms of the agreement, they don’t have to accept credit/debit cards.
Everything you say is moot, cosmosdan. The point remains that the merchant entered willingly into an agreement with the CC company. They’re free to not accept cards at all if they so desire…but if they choose to take them, they should have to follow the rules.
If this were any other kind of business besides a big card issuer, the Dope would be up in arms if their policies were being shat on by another party. But since it’s The Man[sup]TM[/sup], it’s perfectly okay for Mr. Benevolent Smallbusinessowner to give them the finger.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
You want airline miles along with your ice cream? That will be another 25 cents please.
[/QUOTE]
Only the merchant isn’t the one offering the airline miles.
You’re right though that the bonuses aren’t free. Most people have to spend – What? $20,000? $25,000? – to get their ‘free’ airline ticket. And some cards charge an annual fee. (I think this is normal for airline miles. Other bonus programs don’t have annual fees.) And many consumers don’t pay their bills in full every month, so they’re charged interest.
But aside from bonuses, consumers receive a benefit. It’s convenient to pay with plastic. If the card is lost or stolen, they’re out little if any money. Not so if they carry gobs of cash. Consumers agree to the terms of use when they sign up for the card. There is no option to not pay interest on an outstanding loan, or to pay less for goods because they’re going to have to pay interest.
Merchants also agree to terms when they sign up to accept credit cards. They want the benefits. For example, many people will not buy from a merchant who does not accept plastic. Accepting cards means more sales. If a merchant agrees to the terms and fees associated with accepting credit cards, and then violates the agreement by adding a surcharge or imposing a minimum purchase, he is in effect saying ‘I want the benefits of accepting the card, but I don’t want to pay for them.’ Sorry, but that’s a factor he has to consider when he signs up.
I’m not a merchant, but I do make a few eBay sales. I accept credit card payments through PayPal, even though it costs 35¢ (I think) plus 2.9% of the transaction. But I know that people are less likely to buy if they can’t pay with a credit card. There are also eBay insertion and final price fees. I figure those and the credit card fees into the starting bids of the items I sell. I’m not a businessman and I don’t have an MBA. But at least I can figure out that I should take into account the cost of doing business when I set a price.
[QUOTE=Drum God]
I’m not sure that’s quite fair. The debit card I used is linked to my primary checking account. I have a pile of money in there (not huge, but it’s what we’ve got). I also have three other deposit accounts at this bank. There are enough fees involved here to pay for convenience. It is also a convenience to the bank. If I had written a check for the ice cream, my bank would have had to pay for the check processing. It would have taken longer for the merchant to get his money. So, both the bank and the merchant lose. Of course, the merchant chose not to accept checks (which is fine). I could have withdrawn cash from a nearby ATM, thereby incurring more fees and involving yet another bank.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure how it works in every case but sometimes if you use a card as debit and use the pin that transaction is covered in the basic monthly fee or at least much cheaper. If you use that same card as a VSA and have to sign a slip then the shop pays the higher CC fee. If this shop charged a fee for both it’s probably because their profit margin is so small as you noted.
Gulp… That seems a bit cold to me, especially over 25 cents.
You don’t know what Visa has to do with it? While they spend millions and millions on adds and promos to convince you to have and use your CC to buy ice cream they pass that cost on to shop owners and consumers. That lost profit for your local business man, and more money for the bank. Nobody is saying you have to care about him but can you at least understand his predicament.
I think Larry might have been suggesting that we give a shit about our neighbors.
[QUOTE=aerodave]
Everything you say is moot, cosmosdan.
[/QUOTE]
Hardly. The fact that Visa generally does not really follow up on these types of complaints adds weight to cosmosdan’s point and quite honestly renders all this complaining moot.
What I don’t understand is why merchants don’t use the glaring loophole in their Visa agreement, namely that you are allowed to give a discount on cash payments. If these merchants had a sign up that said “Marked prices are for Credit purchases. Cash and Debit get 10% off” would everyone love it, now that the Contract is being followed to the letter? Or is it simply about not wanting to pay for your convenience, as suggested by cosmosdan?
eta: oh, and Fear Itself - I have a feeling Visa would follow up on fraudulent charge reversals.
[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Go ahead and accept the extra fee on your charge. Then do a chargeback through Visa for the whole purchase. Like the business’s responsibilities under the merchant contract with Visa, your responsibilities under the purchase contract are optional.
[/QUOTE]
Do you know how chargebacks work? Not like that. You don’t get to buy something and then arbitrarily get your money back. If that was the case stores would be going under right and left.
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.]
They do. If they don’t like the terms of the agreement, they don’t have to accept credit/debit cards.
[/QUOTE]
Or they can opt for some other compromise and see how their customers and the CC companies react, which is exactly what they’re doing. I just don’t see any reason to vilify them for trying to get by. Do you think these small businesses are getting filthy rich off their 25 cent surcharge?
[QUOTE=aerodave]
Everything you say is moot, cosmosdan. The point remains that the merchant entered willingly into an agreement with the CC company. They’re free to not accept cards at all if they so desire…but if they choose to take them, they should have to follow the rules.
If this were any other kind of business besides a big card issuer, the Dope would be up in arms if their policies were being shat on by another party. But since it’s The Man[sup]TM[/sup], it’s perfectly okay for Mr. Benevolent Smallbusinessowner to give them the finger.
[/QUOTE]
No, in a strict ethical sense they should honor their contract but that’s a very strict, unrealistic and very unsympathetic line to draw.
Have you ever signed up for something only to discover after the fact that it wasn’t as good a deal as you thought and there were policies you thought were unfair and way too costly? {like say a CC} Have you ever called to voice your discontent over policies and hidden costs you thought were to high or maybe tried to find a way around it? Why should we be so angry at the merchant? Does it occur to you that the CC company is giving you the finger by not enforcing these policies and keeping their agreement with you?
If people were really so very outraged from an ethical point of view they would tear up their credit cards and swear to never use them until VSA and others enforced their own policies. Having been in retail for many years I’ve seen this repeatedly in varying scenarios. The American consumer has been spoiled so it’s harder to make the cause and effect connection over stuff like this.