# I was fined 40€ for mistakenly sitting on first class **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 29, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221 "2012-10-29T16:30:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/21 "2012-10-29T20:03:56Z")
And another thing - it’s different for all you lot coming over here with your Interrail thingy maggummies, but when you’re a native trying to travel around the ticketing system is UTTERLY INSANE. You can very often find a situation where buying the “wrong” ticket, or even a whole set of “wrong” tickets, is much cheaper than buying the “correct” ticket. And this is so complicated there’s even a guy called Barry Doe who writes a TWO PAGE LONG COLUMN published EVERY FORTNIGHT about ticketing policy. You can see his, erm, basic website here: [http://www.barrydoe.co.uk/](http://www.barrydoe.co.uk/) ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/22 "2012-10-29T20:09:56Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Only a few minutes between stations? > > I never heard of such closely placed stations outside of urban transit systems. Well, it seems like **Fear of the Dark** is indeed in an urban transit system. Germany (which I assume he is in due to the telling Fahrpreisnacherhebung) has a very dense system of subways, urban light railway, regional trains and national trains, the last two of which even use the same tracks. So it is entirely possible to be in Berlin or Hamburg and take a regional train instead of a U- or S-Bahn, because the stations are similar and the train is going to be much faster. It is also correct - on those regional trains there really is no difference at all between first and second class. They are much more mass transit than actual train, but somehow they want to pretend to be. Sorry for catching one of our less understanding ticket control teams! ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/23 "2012-10-29T20:16:44Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > What would happen if said tourists just didn’t pay the ticket? Interpol on high alert? Extradition? You pay on the spot, cash only. They give you a receipt. I suppose I could have refused, but didn’t feel like spending time in a local lock-up. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/24 "2012-10-29T20:26:09Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > You pay on the spot, cash only. They give you a receipt. I suppose I could have refused, but didn’t feel like spending time in a local lock-up. Wait, what??? That’s messed up. Talk about a system primed to be rife with corruption. I’m glad that in the US, as far as I know, you NEVER pay tickets directly to the officer who issues them, always to some municipal county court house or something. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/25 "2012-10-29T20:31:22Z")
> [@Soylent\_Juicy](#): > > We took a little 2 car train from Bagni di Luca to Lucca and on the way there we didn’t know how on earth to purchase a ticket at the station so we figured you bought it from the conductor. We stood in the middle of the packed train and some nice British tourists explained that we were supposed to buy the ticket from a machine at the station and get it punched at said machine. Thankfully the conductor never approached us. On the way back we bought the tickets at the station and sat in “second class”. In my screwup, we did manage to buy the tickets in the station, but (and I forgot about this part) also neglected to stamp them in the machine before boarding. Between that and sitting in the wrong class, I suspect our conductor was being very nice to just shoo us into the second-class compartment. And no, I couldn’t really tell the difference either. The seat coverings might have been a tad nicer in first class. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/26 "2012-10-29T20:34:59Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Wait, what??? > > That’s messed up. Talk about a system primed to be rife with corruption. > > I’m glad that in the US, as far as I know, you NEVER pay tickets directly to the officer who issues them, always to some municipal county court house or something. In the European countries I know, locals get the ticket in the mail. For the exact reason that is provided upthread, tourists will be asked to pay on the spot (and yes I have been in both positions). ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/27 "2012-10-29T20:53:13Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Listen up, people. We don’t know what we don’t know. If we’re not supposed to park somewhere, communicate it. If we’re not supposed to get on a First Class car without a First Class ticket, clearly mark the car as “First Class passengers ONLY.” I don’t have much to say about your parking story, although you probably had a good case to have it dismissed. But throughout Europe first class cars are distinguished from second class cars by having a big “1” painted on them near the door. A tourist might mistake it once but never again. Heck, I’ll admit I made this mistake in France once almost 30 years ago. Then I learned to check for the number beside the door and I never made that mistake in Europe again. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/28 "2012-10-29T21:06:30Z")
I’ve got to say that I still don’t understand what the distinction is supposed to be between first and second class. Are you just paying more money to be in a less-crowded car? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/29 "2012-10-29T21:36:50Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I’ve got to say that I still don’t understand what the distinction is supposed to be between first and second class. Are you just paying more money to be in a less-crowded car? That seems about right to me. From what I could tell, a ticket was good between two cities, and specified which type of train (fast trains more expensive than slow ones, for example), but didn’t say you had to be on a specific train. From Stuttgart to Munich, the trains ran about once per hour. I don’t know what happens if everybody, just by coincidence, gets on the 6:00 train instead of the 5:00 or 7:00. I’d be annoyed to have paid for my ticket and have to stand for that length of time, but I’m not sure what the mechanism is to prevent it. There was something about reserved seats, but I never figured out how that was supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/30 "2012-10-29T21:42:36Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > How the heck did you get on Eurostar in Italy? > > No. It wasn’t an accident. All that happened was he bought an upgrade to first class on the train and a journalist claimed he was trying to get the upgrade for free. > > Trust me when I say that first class on virgin trains is not some super duper experience for the mega rich. I always travel first class when I use them. Ah ! I’ve heard about Virgin trains ! If you pay extra they hose you down in the cattle wagons if its a hot day, and first class passengers are supplied with a bucket if they need to do a dump. Branson !I’m looking at YOU ! ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/31 "2012-10-29T21:51:12Z")
Heck never mind a bucket, the vent on the toilet tank is right next to the air intake (or something like that, I forget the explanation) so the vestibules (at a minimum) always stink. By the way the trains are an Italian design. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/32 "2012-10-30T00:04:08Z")
Just to chime in, in most cases first class means bigger seats and more room. Quite similar to air travel really. Just like at home, it is your responsibility to know the rules/laws. Although I personally think the situation in the OP would be served better by just pointing him to the right carriage. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/33 "2012-10-30T00:33:28Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Wait, what??? > > That’s messed up. Talk about a system primed to be rife with corruption. > > I’m glad that in the US, as far as I know, you NEVER pay tickets directly to the officer who issues them, always to some municipal county court house or something. Well, that was back in the 90s, so perhaps it’s changed. As for the US, Montana county cops used to issue basic speeding tickets that were $5 each. You had the option of paying the officer or going to court. Again, that was a very long time ago, and I don’t know if it’s still the practice. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/34 "2012-10-30T01:05:25Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > [Another bit of “secret knowledge” is that if you cannot get seats in standard you are entitled to sit in first although you are supposed to tell the guard - warning: that is only an approximation of a more complex position; check the national rail conditions of carraige before relying on this] Not true at all in my experience in the UK. I’m regularly crammed onto standing-room-only services that have loads of first-class seats available, but if you want to sit in them then you have to pay the upgrade. (And pay it before you sit down, otherwise you’ll get a penalty fare rather than just having to pay for the upgrade.) ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/35 "2012-10-30T01:45:23Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Not true at all in my experience in the UK. I’m regularly crammed onto standing-room-only services that have loads of first-class seats available, but if you want to sit in them then you have to pay the upgrade. (And pay it before you sit down, otherwise you’ll get a penalty fare rather than just having to pay for the upgrade.) That sir/madam, is why you need to know about the [national rail conditions of carriage](http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf) - take a look at section 39 - and quote it to revenue inspectors and the like in the future! Glad to be of service 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/36 "2012-10-30T01:47:15Z")
(in general the document is full of all kinds of useful rights, you just need to know of its existence) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/37 "2012-10-30T02:36:20Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Same thing happened to me in Budapest some years ago. I don’t read or speak Hungarian and had no idea there were such things as first class cars. The local cops liked to swoop on tourists, as they know they’re easy targets. I’m pretty sure they just pocketed the money back then. That happened to me in Poland. Luckily, I speak Polish. When the conductor told me that me and my travel companion were sitting in first class, I just looked around increduously and asked, in Polish, _To jest pierwsza klasa?_ (“_This_ is first class?”) He chuckled at me, punched our tickets, and let us go on our way. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/38 "2012-10-30T02:48:30Z")
> [@Fear\_of\_the\_Dark](#): > > Train wagons are exactly same. There is no difference between them. The only difference is the numbers on them. Number 1 is first class. Number 2 is second class. I just traveled on Thalys trains in The Netherlands, Belgium and France 3 weeks ago. I can attest that there is a definite difference between first and second class on those trains because I traveled in both and the first class trains were much roomier. Also, every time I boarded there was an attendant on the platform who checked your ticket and directed you to the correct car and class. The conductor did walk through after each stop as well and actually punch the tickets but since they have assigned seats in both first and second class a person would have to either be willfully trying to sneak in to first class or be a complete ninny to get caught out like you did, at least on any of those lines. Just out of curiosity, where were you traveling? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/39 "2012-10-30T02:56:06Z")
On the flip side, I did get fined in Italy on my 21st birthday in the middle of the night. I was in a train compartment with bench seats on either side, seated right against the window. There were two French women to the left of me, and two American women across from me. It was the middle of the night, and we were all fast asleep, and I had my legs across the aisle on the bench seat across from me. We were awoken to the conductor checking tickets, and then he says something to me in Italian and points at my legs. I have no idea what he’s talking about, so he whips out a calculator and starts punching into it. He shows it to me. It says 15000. I shrug my shoulders. He points to my legs again. Then it starts to make sense to me. He was fining me 15000 lira (about US$10 at the time) for putting my legs up on the seat. I was a bit irritated, but paid up. The women looked at me and expressed incredulity and anger on my behalf at what just happened. He did give me a receipt, though, which I kept proudly for many years until it got lost in a move. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/40 "2012-10-30T03:08:25Z")
FotD, I took the opportunity to travel in a First Class carriage from LeMans to Paris this summer. My friend and I were the only ones in the carriage. As we got closer to Paris, more and more students came on board (it was a Sunday evening) to return to school. Within about 3 stops, first class was loaded with students and coach class was still half-empty. There was no conductor checking tickets and I still had to go three coaches up to find a loo. I didn’t mind, partially because I am used to travelling in coach, partially because the students were not unruly, but I was amazed that we got charged €20 more for the same travelling conditions. It all seemed arbitrary to me. Next time, I’ll buy the cheap seats. Good luck in your fight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221.md?page=3)