# I was fined 40€ for mistakenly sitting on first class **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 29, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221 "2012-10-29T16:30:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Virgil\_Tibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c4cdca/32.png) [@Virgil\_Tibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Virgil_Tibbs)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/41 "2012-10-30T09:40:59Z")
Wow, look at all these silly Europeans with their first class “wagons” and bizarre, incomprehensible and unAmerican train fare rules. If only they would adopt our superior system. They would all be on German-speaking trains if it weren’t for us… ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/42 "2012-10-30T10:33:48Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > But throughout Europe first class cars are distinguished from second class cars by having a big “1” painted on them near the door. A tourist might mistake it once but never again. Heck, I’ll admit I made this mistake in France once almost 30 years ago. Then I learned to check for the number beside the door and I never made that mistake in Europe again. Do they communicate to look for these numbers to passengers, for instance printed in tiny print on their ticket? On a huge bulletin board at the train station? My point is that if they don’t communicate it to the first-time traveler or tourist, how are we to know how to do things properly? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/43 "2012-10-30T10:52:20Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Do they communicate to look for these numbers to passengers, for instance printed in tiny print on their ticket? On a huge bulletin board at the train station? My point is that if they don’t communicate it to the first-time traveler or tourist, how are we to know how to do things properly? During my trip, for all I know there was a sign but it was too complicated/small/whatever for me to understand with my very limited Italian. From my limited readings beforehand on the subject, I knew you had to buy your ticket ahead of time, but we missed the part about different classes or stamping the ticket before getting on the train. Thinking about my local commuter train, if you get on the train in Chicago (vs a small suburban station with big signs in a small space) it’d be easy to miss any mention of an extra surcharge if you buy the ticket on the train rather than at a ticket agent window ahead of time. You also must pay cash if you pay on the train, no credit card or anything, and it doesn’t accept the CTA’s subway/bus combo fare passes. So those are the things that I think would really mess with someone who didn’t speak decent English. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/44 "2012-10-30T11:10:39Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I’ve got to say that I still don’t understand what the distinction is supposed to be between first and second class. Are you just paying more money to be in a less-crowded car? In the basic case, yes. Not-basic case gets 1st-class folk a meal, magazine and their choice of newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/45 "2012-10-30T11:15:28Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Do they communicate to look for these numbers to passengers, for instance printed in tiny print on their ticket? On a huge bulletin board at the train station? My point is that if they don’t communicate it to the first-time traveler or tourist, how are we to know how to do things properly? The ticket indicates _CLASE: PRIMERA_ or _CLASE: SEGUNDA_ or the equivalent in the local language, or the specific assigned car and seat. There are signs posted at the vending machines and/or booths saying to check your ticket before leaving; if there is a part of the ticket the traveler doesn’t understand, it is them who are supposed to have a mouth and be able to use it. The people at the booths will usually go above and beyond to make sure everything is clear, enough that I remember clearly the few surly ones I’ve encountered. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/46 "2012-10-30T11:19:42Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Do they communicate to look for these numbers to passengers, for instance printed in tiny print on their ticket? On a huge bulletin board at the train station? My point is that if they don’t communicate it to the first-time traveler or tourist, how are we to know how to do things properly? It’s you repsonsibility to know this; if you don’t, ask someone. The same as with normal laws. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/47 "2012-10-30T13:04:32Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I’ve got to say that I still don’t understand what the distinction is supposed to be between first and second class. Are you just paying more money to be in a less-crowded car? Depends on the service and rolling stock, etc, but in the UK, First Class _can_ mean: better seats (wider, more leg room, adjustable, etc) A compartment enclosed from externally-opening doors (so you don’t get noise and cold breezes at every stop) Mains power sockets to charge your laptop And yes, a less-crowded experience, as there is less demand ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/48 "2012-10-30T13:17:03Z")
On the trains I usually take in the UK (South West Trains), first class carriages are noticeably more roomy. Seats are in pairs with large tables between them, and there are power points. They’re usually almost empty. You wouldn’t be able to sit in one accidentally unless you were blind - the seats are blue, rather than red as in standard class, and the outside of the carriage is clearly marked, as are the sliding doors between carriages. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/49 "2012-10-30T13:22:54Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Not true at all in my experience in the UK. I’m regularly crammed onto standing-room-only services that have loads of first-class seats available, but if you want to sit in them then you have to pay the upgrade. (And pay it before you sit down, otherwise you’ll get a penalty fare rather than just having to pay for the upgrade.) > [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > That sir/madam, is why you need to know about the [national rail conditions of carriage](http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf) - take a look at section 39 - and quote it to revenue inspectors and the like in the future! > > Glad to be of service 🙂 Um! Not as I read section 39. As far as I can see you have to have permission from the train staff PRIOR to occupying 1st Class and they do not HAVE to give you permission. > [@](#): > > If you have a standard class ticket (other than a Season Ticket), no standard class accommodation is available, **and ticket staff on that train give their permi** ssion, then you may travel in first class accommodation (or the equivalent) where this is available without extra charge. (My bolding) The condition go on to give reasons why the won’t give permission (needed by somebody with a 1st class ticket) but do not say the have to give permission. Looks to be discretionary. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/50 "2012-10-30T13:29:52Z")
Just to add to \*\*Mangetout \*\*and **Colophon** , the difference in the UK is large and obvious. As well as the greater space and comfort, on long distance trains they will probably supply “free” soft drinks and snacks to your seat and the carriage may be equiped with wifi. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/51 "2012-10-30T21:09:32Z")
I can remember (1980s) being warned in the Army that the German police can require you to pay the fine right there on the autobahn, and it’s also an offence to travel on the autobahn without enough cash to pay the fine. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/52 "2012-10-30T21:13:49Z")
My friend and I were fined 13,000 lire for being in a 1st Class car instead of the 2nd Class we’d paid for. (There were no seats in 2nd.) ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/53 "2012-10-30T22:44:12Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Depends on the service and rolling stock, etc, but in the UK, First Class _can_ mean: > better seats (wider, more leg room, adjustable, etc) > A compartment enclosed from externally-opening doors (so you don’t get noise and cold breezes at every stop) > Mains power sockets to charge your laptop > And yes, a less-crowded experience, as there is less demand Same thing, basically, in German long-distance trains: - in open coaches, 1+2 seating rather than 2+2 - somewhat nicer seats, more widely spaced - in more modern rolling stocks, power sockets - in ICE trains, at-seat meal service i.e. you do not need to go to the dining car, complimentary newspapers and complimentary small snacks - less crowded - the more important to me since I have become middle-aged: a clientele accustomed to use indoor voice (no groups of screeching teen girls or braying pensioners). There are first-class compartments in many regional and urban/suburban trains (such as some S-bahn systems), but the relative benefit is much smaller IMO. BTW the 1st class compartments are usually marked _at least_ in German and English, usually also in French and Italian. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/54 "2012-10-31T04:56:48Z")
And then, apparently, there are “silent” cars, at least on my last trip to the Netherlands. Best I can tell this means no talking of any kind- like a monastery on tracks. I nearly gave a guy apoplexy by not knowing this rule - he was stuck between enduring my occasional comments to my GF, or breaking his own silence to set me straight, as I could not make sense of his increasingly urgent gestures. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/55 "2012-10-31T07:31:46Z")
We have ‘quiet zones’ on many trains here in the UK (supposed to mean no audible devices such as phones, games, music players and conversation kept low) However, they are not enforced, and we have enough ignorant assholes so as to make them useless. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/56 "2012-10-31T10:26:54Z")
Well let’s not forget that you can end up in a silent zone accidentally if someone books the tickets and isn’t told, as once memorably happened to me on a stag party, still it was only from London to Newcastle… ---
**Author:** ![Soylent\_Juicy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Soylent\_Juicy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soylent_Juicy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/57 "2012-10-31T15:20:58Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > My friend and I were fined 13,000 lire for being in a 1st Class car instead of the 2nd Class we’d paid for. (There were no seats in 2nd.) 😕 Were you supposed to stand? Or wait for the next train and be late? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221/58 "2012-10-31T16:59:47Z")
> [@Soylent\_Juicy](#): > > 😕 Were you supposed to stand? Or wait for the next train and be late? Well, yes. I’ve been on many trains that had a shortage of seating in second class, and people stood or just sat on the floor in between compartments. It wouldn’t even occur to me that I would be allowed in first class on a second class ticket. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-fined-40-for-mistakenly-sitting-on-first-class/639221.md?page=2)