# I was wrong and you were right. \[Trump-related\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824 "2017-02-02T15:54:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/121 "2017-02-06T16:22:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > (Side point: Yes, this form of “being kinds” does cause harm. It lets the target think he’s advanced in his moral and civic responsibility when he’s really still pretty damn far behind. It lets him slow down his maturation. That’s harm.) But he has advanced, in the sense of “developed beyond an initial stage”. Moving from 0 to 1 is still moving. As for still being far behind, that’s why people are suggesting what the next steps should be. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/122 "2017-02-06T16:25:34Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Really is that what democracy requires? You realize they just elected Donald Trump you stupid fuck. Compared to the leaders of non-democratic societies (including the warlords that dominate stateless societies), Trump grades out pretty well. I certainly wouldn’t swap him for a randomly-selected dictator or Afghan warlord. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/123 "2017-02-06T16:41:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > My views will come to prominence outside of the political realm. Oh, thank goodness. I was afraid that your light would be forever hidden under a bushel. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/124 "2017-02-06T16:44:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Civilization is shorthand for the voluntary interactions of individuals. Civilization provided vast wealth through voluntary exchanges, then the state skimmed off the top and bought some nice things … Sounds just like the Ron Paul / Ayn Rand-ian libertarian bullshit I would expect from you. Ron Paul’s solution to health care was not (heaven forbid!) a public health insurance system, it was “volunteers” like church groups. The way I imagine this working is that, for instance, if you needed triple bypass cardiac surgery, a kindly heart surgeon would do it for free in the church basement, while some church ladies administer anaesthetic, work the cardiopulmonary bypass machine and hold the flashlight. In return, the grateful patient will supply the surgeon with garden tomatoes, in the volunteer barter system so beloved by lunatic libertarians. 😃 And this is why I don’t waste time arguing with the “we don’t need no steenkin’ government” crowd. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > … Unfortunately they killed a lot of people in the process. Now they’ve decided to ban muslims and who knows what else the state has in store. > > Really is that what democracy requires? You realize they just elected Donald Trump you stupid fuck. You didn’t read or understand what I wrote. The fact that nearly half the population didn’t vote and, most importantly, that half of those who did were clueless yokels, is _ **precisely the problem** _. I suggest you read _[Hillbilly Elegy](https://www.amazon.com/Hillbilly-Elegy-Memoir-Family-Culture/dp/0062300547)_, by J D Vance, or at least get some sense of it [by reading a review](http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-lives-of-poor-white-people) to understand what I’m talking about. It’s not just an attempt at a sympathetic portrait of the kind of low-information marginalized culture that elected Trump, it’s also an insightful look at the complex social interactions that create that kind of culture. Problems like this are symptomatic of deeply entrenched socioeconomic issues that don’t get solved by libertarian simpletons with anti-government delusions and utopian notions of volunteerism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/125 "2017-02-06T17:22:59Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > My views will come to prominence outside of the political realm. Please let us know when the revolution starts – I wouldn’t want to miss it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/126 "2017-02-06T18:02:12Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Failed marriage and a couple of kids who don’t really like you? I couldn’t possibly imagine why. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/127 "2017-02-06T18:27:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > My views will come to prominence outside of the political realm. That’s it? That’s your grand fucking pronouncement? “My views will come to prominence outside of the political realm?” That sounds like bad dialogue from a fucking game of Dungeons and Dragons. Jesus what a douche ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/128 "2017-02-06T20:03:24Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > That’s it? That’s your grand fucking pronouncement? “My views will come to prominence outside of the political realm?” That sounds like bad dialogue from a fucking game of Dungeons and Dragons. Jesus what a douche Isn’t there a taxpayer somewhere you should be raping? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/129 "2017-02-06T20:21:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Please let us know when the revolution starts – I wouldn’t want to miss it. Perhaps you have heard of it. It’s called capitalism. Eventually the growth of capitalism will outpace government’s ability to siphon resources from it. It will become a vestigial body like the appendix, or the Post Office. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Sounds just like the Ron Paul / Ayn Rand-ian libertarian bullshit I would expect from you. Ron Paul’s solution to health care was not (heaven forbid!) a public health insurance system, it was “volunteers” like church groups. The way I imagine this working is that, for instance, if you needed triple bypass cardiac surgery, a kindly heart surgeon would do it for free in the church basement, while some church ladies administer anaesthetic, work the cardiopulmonary bypass machine and hold the flashlight. In return, the grateful patient will supply the surgeon with garden tomatoes, in the volunteer barter system so beloved by lunatic libertarians. 😃 > > And this is why I don’t waste time arguing with the “we don’t need no steenkin’ government” crowd. > > You didn’t read or understand what I wrote. The fact that nearly half the population didn’t vote and, most importantly, that half of those who did were clueless yokels, is _ **precisely the problem** _. > > I suggest you read _[Hillbilly Elegy](https://www.amazon.com/Hillbilly-Elegy-Memoir-Family-Culture/dp/0062300547)_, by J D Vance, or at least get some sense of it [by reading a review](http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-lives-of-poor-white-people) to understand what I’m talking about. It’s not just an attempt at a sympathetic portrait of the kind of low-information marginalized culture that elected Trump, it’s also an insightful look at the complex social interactions that create that kind of culture. Problems like this are symptomatic of deeply entrenched socioeconomic issues that don’t get solved by libertarian simpletons with anti-government delusions and utopian notions of volunteerism. You sound like someone who is not familiar with libertarian theory or even basic free-market economics as it relates to health care. I am already acquainted with the observations of Vance. Indeed, it is my own observations, very similar to his, that form the foundation for my positions. His observations are very much rooted in reality. I have no idea why you think that his work would cause the scales to fall from my eyes. In fact, I first heard of him from hardcore libertarian anarchist sources. I suggest you read Anatomy of the State by Murray Rothbard, if we are giving out reading assignments. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Compared to the leaders of non-democratic societies (including the warlords that dominate stateless societies), Trump grades out pretty well. I certainly wouldn’t swap him for a randomly-selected dictator or Afghan warlord. Who should the people of Hiroshima have feared more, local gangs with brickbats, or Harry Truman? The government is simply a more successful gang with better PR. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/130 "2017-02-06T20:26:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Perhaps you have heard of it. It’s called capitalism. Eventually the growth of capitalism will outpace government’s ability to siphon resources from it. It will become a vestigial body like the appendix, or the Post Office. And the wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/131 "2017-02-06T20:29:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And the wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. Eh. You could satirize any prediction like that. Solid effort. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/132 "2017-02-06T20:33:30Z")
It’s hilarious that one election can turn a pampered, government check-collecting suburbanite into a Trump minion. Some serious cognitive dissonance for ya. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/133 "2017-02-06T20:40:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It’s hilarious that one election can turn a pampered, government check-collecting suburbanite into a Trump minion. Some serious cognitive dissonance for ya. Who is this directed at? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/134 "2017-02-06T20:42:43Z")
Two roads diverged in a library, and I — I took the one with Orcs, And that has made all the difference. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/135 "2017-02-06T20:53:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who is this directed at? Basically NoVa and MoCo ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/136 "2017-02-06T21:02:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Basically NoVa and MoCo Ahh – a mind reader. The Dope has a lot of those, I’ve noticed. Your powers extend to millions, apparently – quite a skill. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/137 "2017-02-06T21:20:39Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Two roads diverged in a library, and I — > I took the one with Orcs, > And that has made all the difference. > > CMC fnord! (Do you mind if I use this elsewhere?) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/138 "2017-02-06T21:24:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Basically NoVa and MoCo Do they post here? I don’t think I’ve seen them in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/139 "2017-02-06T21:27:09Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > (Do you mind if I use this elsewhere?) 'Tis not my permission ya need . . . 'course Frost being dead 'prolly means he won’t mind either! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824/140 "2017-02-06T21:36:07Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You sound like someone who is not familiar with libertarian theory or even basic free-market economics as it relates to health care. > > I am already acquainted with the observations of Vance. Indeed, it is my own observations, very similar to his, that form the foundation for my positions. His observations are very much rooted in reality. I have no idea why you think that his work would cause the scales to fall from my eyes. In fact, I first heard of him from hardcore libertarian anarchist sources. > > I suggest you read Anatomy of the State by Murray Rothbard, if we are giving out reading assignments. Quite the set of assumptions there, my little libertarian zealot. But quite wrong in the most important respects. I am well aware of the economics of health care with regard to the mechanisms of health care funding, both through academic studies and personal experience. I am sufficiently aware of it, in fact, to understand that “free-market economics” is so diametrically at odds with the essential nature and goals of human health care in a civilized society that only an imbecile would try to apply the former as a solution to the latter. I am not talking here about any criticism of free market principles in themselves, say with respect to the manufacture of automobiles or washing machines, nor am I talking about the usefulness of a regulated free-market approach to the delivery of health care services, but anyone who thinks that the _ **funding** _ of general essential health care should be subject to the free market is an uninformed moron and/or an idiot in the throes of an ideological fantasy. Your comment about Vance is perplexing, but then, so are most of your extremist posts so I didn’t spend much time trying to figure out what it means to you. The book is a depressing albeit sympathetic first-hand account of an uneducated, marginalized society, one that is prone to violence and bigotry against “outsiders” – even fellow Americans – which helps us understand the kind of ignorance, disaffection, and misplaced hope that propelled Trump and his gang of self-serving bigots into power. Does anyone think for a second that anything this gang of thugs is going to do will be of the slightest help to these deluded morons, or will it be just the opposite? You are, however, partly correct in that I am not by any means a close student of libertarian theory, but then again, there are many forms of mental illness with which I’m not intimately familiar. Which, I trust, should also take care of my relative lack of familiarity with your pal Murray Rothbard, not just a fellow libertarian zealot but also, no surprise, a big dabbler in revisionist history, now known as “alternative facts”. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Who should the people of Hiroshima have feared more, local gangs with brickbats, or > Harry Truman? > > The government is simply a more successful gang with better PR. I think you need to look at actual real-life society as it exists and evolves today, and look at it closer to home. And the threat you forgot to mention is not nuclear explosions, or gangs with brickbats, but the tyranny of the plutocracy and corporate power, seeking always to maximize their profits and market dominance, thinking nothing of poisoning consumers, lying to them, gouging and cheating them, recklessly trashing the environment, and colluding to form monopolies invulnerable to competition. The history of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, in particular, is rife with examples. The scourge of tobacco (“soothing to the throat”), tetraethyl lead (“makes your engine run smooth”) and thousands of other dangerous and scam products continued until much later, until government regulation stepped in, through such agencies and measures as anti-trust enforcement, the FDA, and the EPA. But people still lost their homes to subprime mortgage scams because the government wasn’t sufficiently vigilant, and people are still dying from lack of health care even when they have insurance. It continues to this day, and imbeciles like you are responsible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-and-you-were-right-trump-related/778824.md?page=8)