# I Was Wrong- There's a BIG Downside to Letting Tim Tebow start **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 13, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840 "2011-11-13T22:35:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/381 "2011-12-05T15:31:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > (and I was hoping the Bills would be named to a bowl game because they’re not playing like a pro football team) Don’t you have to have a winning record to be in a bowl game? (Oh wait, the NCAA caved on even that this year.) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/382 "2011-12-05T15:44:13Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Don’t you have to have a winning record to be in a bowl game? (Oh wait, the NCAA caved on even that this year.) Nope, just 6 wins. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/383 "2011-12-05T15:53:37Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Nope, just 6 wins. A few teams have made a bowl with 5 - 7 records. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/384 "2011-12-05T16:18:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is the annoying part. I don’t have anything against the guy, but the nonsense that crops up around him - “he just wins,” “he’s inspiring the defense” and especially “there’s no other explanation!” - is just ridiculous. I think in part it reflects how much the sports media is covering Tebow the personality and the controversy around him and not what’s actually going on with the Broncos. > > I admit I was remiss in not pointing out that the Denver defense was, on the whole, bad today. Tebow was good in the second half and this was probably his best performance overall with last week as the second best. But it’s also true that the Broncos offense was putrid in the first half- they almost literally could not have been worse. If they’d played a decent first half, they don’t need the inspiration in the clutch. And if the defense hadn’t scored a TD in the first half and made that late pick, they probably would have lost despite the strong second half and his super inspiration or whatever it’s supposed to be. It doesn’t mean the guy is the worst QB in history, it’s just stuff that has to be acknowledged as factual and is not because people can’t see past the flashier details. > [@Bartman](#): > > Only the Defense’s great play in the second half kept Denver in the game. Come on guys. The defense gave up nearly 500 yards to a team that averages 194. And Minny didn’t even have their best offensive player. A couple turnovers merely mitigates what otherwise would have been a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/385 "2011-12-05T16:24:56Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > A few teams have made a bowl with 5 - 7 records. Really, when? I can’t find any schedules from previous seasons that have records attached, and I don’t really want to click on each team individually. I’m pretty sure bowl-eligibility has been 6 wins for quite some time now (unless you manage to win your conference with fewer wins). ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/386 "2011-12-05T16:37:57Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Come on guys. The defense gave up nearly 500 yards to a team that averages 194. And Minny didn’t even have their best offensive player. A couple turnovers merely mitigates what otherwise would have been a disaster. Well, in their defense, Tebow wasn’t very good at firing them up yesterday. Blame him. He gets the credit for their success when they do well, can we blame him for when they play poorly? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/387 "2011-12-05T16:42:49Z")
> [@treis](#): > > A couple turnovers merely mitigates what otherwise would have been a disaster. Yes, and it looks like they would have lost without those turnovers. Or they could have won easily if the offense had been as “fired up” in the second half as they were in the first. Somehow we keep hearing about how Tebow fires up the entire team, but the offense can’t play a complete game. Why does that keep happening if his leadership is such a big plus? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/388 "2011-12-05T16:47:43Z")
Maybe he only gets fired up when he’s behind? Wasn’t that Elway’s MO? (not saying there’s a comparison, just suggesting he might be a “come from behind” kind of guy.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/389 "2011-12-05T16:55:24Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Maybe he only gets fired up when he’s behind? :rolleyes: They were behind for a bunch of the first half owing to the fact that the offense was horrible. When they held a lead it was because the defense scored a touchdown while the offense couldn’t move the ball to save its life. Anyway the claim isn’t that _Tebow_ gets fired up, it’s that he is so inspiring he fires up the whole freaking team. If they’re inspired, why do they keep coming out flat and falling behind? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/390 "2011-12-05T16:59:37Z")
True enough. Falling back to my last observation: _he ain’t Orton_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/391 "2011-12-05T17:00:38Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Well, in their defense, Tebow wasn’t very good at firing them up yesterday. Blame him. He gets the credit for their success when they do well, can we blame him for when they play poorly? You can’t, because you’ve spent the thread denying any link between the two. But hey, maybe two early TOs and a safety did affect the defense a bit. I’ve got no problem acknowledging that. It’s people that take your position that can’t acknowledge the link. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/392 "2011-12-05T17:01:47Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Maybe he only gets fired up when he’s behind? So Tebow is the Hulk? Jesus Hulk? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/393 "2011-12-05T17:03:07Z")
But seriously, I didn’t watch the game. I did see the big TD passes where the receivers seemed to create a ton of separation, but that doesn’t mean anything bad about Tebow. People are saying he was a lot more accurate - but how was his motion? Is that improving at all? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/394 "2011-12-05T17:10:01Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Nope, just 6 wins. Not quite. The rule is actually .500 or better, which USUALLY means you’re at 6-6 or better with the 12 game seasons. But there can be 6-7 records with conference championship game losses (which means one of the divisions really, really sucks). That’s why UCLA had to get an exemption. Since the current bowl eligibility rules came into place in 2006, there have been NO 5 win teams to make a bowl. I’m not sure where **OMG** was getting that information. It’s remained a possibility late into the last couple seasons when it wasn’t clear some conferences would use all their slots, but there’s almost always some 6-win team that needs to fill a slot. Back to the main thread, I’ll admit I’m not a big Tebow fan, but I will admit he’s at least a mediocre QB and shows some signs of potential improvement. That’s a far cry from admitting he “fires” anything up. Without Von Miller, the Denver defense stumbled a bit, and it took some heroics to beat a 2-9 team (albeit also one with an exciting QB). Good teams don’t need heroics to beat bad teams. I guess my stand is the same one that Bill Parcells takes. Is Tim Tebow the kind of QB who can bring the team back from a 21 point deficit in the 4th quarter? Not right now. He may develop into it, but he’s not that guy right now. Good physical skills and reasonable game manager but he’s not remotely my top pick at making big comebacks. To be fair, he wasn’t that guy even in college. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/395 "2011-12-05T17:10:52Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You can’t, because you’ve spent the thread denying any link between the two. Putting aside what I thought was an obvious bit of sarcasm, I’ll simply point out once again I’ve never denied that a QB can have an effect on a defense, and in fact have stated repeatedly (to apparently no avail) so in this very thread. I’ve simply think that the defensive players have a much, much bigger effect. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/396 "2011-12-05T17:11:51Z")
> [@treis](#): > > But hey, maybe two early TOs and a safety did affect the defense a bit. The safety gave the Vikings two points and the Tebow fumble led directly to a field goal. Are you saying that giving up points and field position might not affect the defense? > [@](#): > > I’ve got no problem acknowledging that. It’s people that take your position that can’t acknowledge the link. It’s been acknowledged many times that the offense and defense are connected and I don’t know why you keep saying that nobody will admit that. The question is why Tebow keeps getting credit for intangible qualities like clutchiness and inspirationality that are supposed to be helping the defense while factual performance things like picking up first downs and scoring points are being overlooked. We keep hearing about how Tebow’s makeup helps the defense - he’s magically made them play better when they got healthy and the schedule got easier - but not much about how the defense has bailed out the Broncos when the offense plays poorly. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/397 "2011-12-05T17:13:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Well, in their defense, Tebow wasn’t very good at firing them up yesterday. Blame him. He gets the credit for their success when they do well, can we blame him for when they play poorly? To continue this response, it was widely acknowledged that Steve Jobs came equipped with a reality distortion field. He had an ability to make a product, which wasn’t new or groundbreaking, seem like a brand new awesome thing. Why is it so hard to believe that Tebow can do a similar thing? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/398 "2011-12-05T18:04:33Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > That point has been brought up repeatedly and basically batted aside because “he just wins”. The problem is that the mediocre to bad offensive play in the first 3 quarters but good defensive play sets them up for 4th quarter comebacks. So, somehow, Tebow is firing up the defense to play outstanding ball for an entire game but only firing up the offense for the last few minutes of the game. Does not compute. > [@Marley23](#): > > He actually did play well in the second half, and I was especially impressed by the TD pass to Decker. It’s also true that the defense scored one of the TDs and the interception at the end set them up for an easy field goal at the gun. And once again we come back to the fact that if the offense had not been atrocious in the first half, they wouldn’t have needed late game heroics to beat a 2-9 team missing its best player. Problem here is that you guys are raising an issue with the other side’s argument and not addressing this same issue on your side. Why is it that Tebow has led so many 4th quarter comebacks? Why does he get so much better late in the game with the game on the line? It could be a coincidence, but it’s happened enough to this point that it’s worth hypothesizing possible reasons. One suggestion is that - as many have noted - Tebow has an unorthodox approach and many detractors. So the theory is that that his unconventional approach is actually more effective than the Denver coaching staff believes it to be. For the first three quarters they go to a super-conservative rushing attack (that has Tebow passing primarily in the most obvious and easily defendable situations) which does not breed success. Only when trailing late in the game do they take the risk and “let Tebow be Tebow”. Disclaimer: I’ve not followed this closely enough to offer the above as an opinion. Just tossing it out as a suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/399 "2011-12-05T18:31:24Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Problem here is that you guys are raising an issue with the other side’s argument and not addressing this same issue on your side. Why is it that Tebow has led so many 4th quarter comebacks? Why does he get so much better late in the game with the game on the line? I don’t think it needs to be addressed because nobody is denying that he’s led some fourth-quarter comebacks. The fact that the offense sucks in the first half undercuts the argument that he’s inspiring the team and they are playing hard for him. > [@](#): > > So the theory is that that his unconventional approach is actually more effective than the Denver coaching staff believes it to be. Yes, that must be it. He’s so awesome that the coaches don’t know it either. > [@](#): > > For the first three quarters they go to a super-conservative rushing attack (that has Tebow passing primarily in the most obvious and easily defendable situations) which does not breed success. Only when trailing late in the game do they take the risk and “let Tebow be Tebow”. Or they start passing more in the second half because they’re always losing in the second half and afford to run the ball all the time. It looks like he’s passing more effectively the last two weeks, and they did take advantage of the Vikings’ secondary last week. Let’s not start making up theories about how the Broncos are holding Tebow back. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840/400 "2011-12-05T18:47:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Why is it that Tebow has led so many 4th quarter comebacks? Why does he get so much better late in the game with the game on the line? Ground and pound. Defenses tire, especially against run-heavy offenses. You see this a lot in games against Baltimore, Tennessee, or Houston, where the run and pass games get MORE effective as the defenses don’t get a chance to recover and the other team plays clock management. Credit to Tebow for staging those 4th quarter comebacks, but he shouldn’t be in that position so many times. It’s running to set up the pass. Maybe he actually is better in the 4th quarter, but it’s not like the coaching staff is just letting him do his thing just in the 4th quarter. They still call the plays the entire time. You can’t put a lack of execution on them. And I imagine they make some adjustments at the half to counter the other team. It’s one of the things that makes it hard to be a team executive. If your QB is good, your team should have the lead going into the 4th quarter. Further, you hope your team is good enough to have a cushion (look at the NE/Indy game this last week) so that no 4th quarter comeback is good enough. Being in position to comeback is, I suppose, the next best thing. I’m sure the exciting 4th quarter comebacks are great for the fans. But having watched Texans games for the last several years and watched too many last minute drives (whether successful or not), I’m much happier with a solid 10-20 point lead, an absolutely boring 4th quarter, and a fairly secure playoff berth (even with a 3rd string rookie QB starting). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-was-wrong-theres-a-big-downside-to-letting-tim-tebow-start/602840.md?page=21)