# I waterboard! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894 "2007-12-22T02:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![fuctdaily](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@fuctdaily](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuctdaily)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/181 "2007-12-24T18:49:44Z")
Daniel, That was well thought out. There’s lots of things like that. I can be made “rogue” but the only issue becomes commanders truly believing that if their men do it they are going to get in trouble. Otherwise it turns into a big open secret. To make it work you’d either need to fake prosecute people for waterboarding within the CIA, or actually leave some officers out to hang. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/182 "2007-12-24T21:07:33Z")
> [@cedman](#): > > Another reason to change the SDMB motto to “exposing ignorance”. Drowning is " to extinguish life by immersion in water or other liquid." or “to be suffocated in water or other liquid”. The victim does NOT have to inhale the liquid into the lungs. If breathing STOPS (and life ends) because the victim was under water, then that is drowning. In fact, many drowning victims do NOT inhale the water into their lungs but they are dead just the same. The verb “to drown” does not expressly imply death. I covered this earlier in the thread; try to keep up. > [@Triskadecamus](#): > > I find your political honesty more impressive than your physical courage in this. You didn’t even offer the slightest wiggle room for those whom you have supported so vehemently in the past. (Not on this issue, but in general.) This is torture, you know it, and you reported it honestly. Bravo. Well done. It seems to me that honest Conservative Republicans should sit up and take notice of the real facts. Pardon me if I doubt that they shall. Agreed. The most impressive part is that **Scylla** obviously (to those of us who have been around here) started the experiment, and maybe the post, with the intention of proving that waterboarding _wasn’t_ torture, yet he was willing and able to buck his own politics in support of the truth. ---
**Author:** ![namatad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@namatad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/namatad)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/183 "2007-12-24T21:48:45Z")
1. “don’t try this at home” - I cringe when I read this type of comment. The citizen scientist is an integral part of scientific method. We don’t have to trust ANYONE. The “zero risk” and “threat of lawsuit” are two of the saddest things to happen in the world. Everything has risk. 2. After reading Scylla’s OP, I was trapped, I had to read the rest of the post. Which led to having to reply, which led to subscribing. This lead to looking for further “examples” of people attempting “at home water-boarding”. Clearly there are MANY examples collaborating Scylla’s experience. 3. my only question is: “IF it is true that water-boarding IS NOT torture, then the police/government should be able to use it as a regular tool during interrigations. Why hasnt this happened? Why haven’t, say the chicago police, starting using it?” meh maybe GW should volunteer his daughters and wife to under go this safe and effective, non-torture method, just to prove how safe it is. I am sure that they would gladly agree to do this. Anything to help dad. Televise it live, it would smash all viewing records. of all time. /love my country /hate terrorism /wish my country was a beacon of hope and freedom in the world today ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/184 "2007-12-25T00:48:03Z")
[QUOTE=ratbastid] Fixed that for you. [/QUOTE] No. You changed that “for” him. This is an explicit violation of the membership rules prohibiting the [changing of other posters’ statements](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7697048#post7697048). Regardless of your intentions, do not do this again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/185 "2007-12-25T00:59:38Z")
[QUOTE=cedman] :smack: Why am I trying to educate Der Trihs anyway? He already knows EVERYTHING, just ask him. :smack: Waterboarding IS torture, someone who wants to argue against that point is STUPID. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure of the point of either of these two statements, but I will point out that neither of them does anything to further the discussion and that both of them could be perceived as personal insults without any squinting. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ecks)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/186 "2007-12-25T06:12:15Z")
I was so impressed I too had to log a guest account just to marvel (and I laughed so hard at the blimp one my abdomen STILL hurts - thanks for linking that). Trying to fit the discussion here into the same mental space as the pundit/plutocracy noise machine, I got to thinking. Someone needs to make a very solid professional looking water board (maybe cherry wood with ash accents), and invite all the media they can to their grand installing of it on to the steps of Capital Hill at a nice busy time - call it 4:50 on a Thursday. They could proceed to invite all passing senators, broadcasters, civil servants, Fox “News” Things, what have you, to step right up and show the watching liberal pussies that this waterboarding thing really isn’t torture at all. It takes 30 seconds, it’s not dangerous, heck, you can keep the towels we’ll give you afterwards to dry your hair. Free prize for the person who goes longest. Step right up and show your big hairy republican cojones. I figure it’s win win. Either you get national footage of Washington’s toughest shuffling past trying to stare at their feet, blatantly unwilling to put their $ where their mouth is… OR you get some miracle instant conversion scenes complete with shocking footage of big tough men in suits panicking inside of 15 seconds, reduced to quivering wrecks. Harry Reid can stand there and promise that he’ll give up the whole torture bandwagon thing if anyone will go through it twice. Any way you cut it, the footage would be priceless. ---
**Author:** ![bibulb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@bibulb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibulb)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/187 "2007-12-25T07:26:24Z")
[QUOTE=Chouan] ENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO: INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is. AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No. INTERROGATOR: Ok, then read this [hands suspect a copy of Scylla’s post and winks] [/QUOTE] AL-QAIDA: …Heh, _blimps_. INTERROGATOR: …Oh, poop. I meant, read _this_. … AL-QAIDA: I confess! … … But, still - I mean, a _blimp_? Heh. That’s just great. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/188 "2007-12-25T09:49:16Z")
Well, thanks a lot **Scylla**. A little last minute SDMB xmas procrastination, and now 4 pages and numerous asides later, this Santa is up well past his bedtime. Don’t know why you’d think it mightn’t be torture, but I’m impressed that you’d lay it on the line for your beliefs. This thread is clearly an instant SDMB classic. ---
**Author:** ![cedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cedman)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/189 "2007-12-25T13:27:08Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] The verb “to drown” does not expressly imply death. I covered this earlier in the thread; try to keep up.=QUOTE] When you “covered” this you misapplied one definition of the word drown. A village covered in water is not what we’re talking about, we’re talking about people… you know, living human beings? In a medical application, which is what we’re talking about, to drown means to suffocate or respiratory arrest. Could you maybe think and see how soon death follows after respiratory arrest? Or can YOU continue to live after being deprived of oxygen for an indeterminate period of time? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/190 "2007-12-25T13:47:49Z")
What an opportunity to be a pedantic prick! I’m there! If someone drowns and are revived by timely application of Boy Scout life-saving techniques, said person has, in fact, “drowned”, haven’t they? Even though they are not, in the strictest sense of the word, “dead”? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/191 "2007-12-25T14:00:38Z")
Does all this quibbling over the word “drown” have a point? Or could we just move on? I’m not sure that nailing down the perfect definition actually changes Scylla’s experience (or that of any other person who has been subjected to that act). ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/192 "2007-12-25T14:06:18Z")
I recently read a BBC News piece that quotes Richard Armitage, who has experienced waterboarding while in the military, as saying “Of course water-boarding is torture,” he said bluntly. “I can’t believe we’re even debating it. We shouldn’t be doing that kind of stuff.” FTR, Armitage served as Deputy Secretary of State from 2001 until 2005. Under George W. Bush. He doesn’t hem and haw, and he is hardly a liberal pinko. From that, I was able to be fairly sure of the answer to this question without inflicting any pain on my self. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/193 "2007-12-25T14:09:53Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Does all this quibbling over the word “drown” have a point? [/QUOTE] It diverts attention from just how awful waterboarding is; useful for it’s supporters. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/194 "2007-12-25T16:00:00Z")
I’m not really certain how I feel about this sort of volunteerism. However, I should like to point out to friend **Scylla** that the concurrent thread as to whether a practice of auto-fellation will induce homosexuality remains unresolved. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/195 "2007-12-25T16:18:32Z")
[QUOTE=Ecks] Trying to fit the discussion here into the same mental space as the pundit/plutocracy noise machine, I got to thinking. Someone needs to make a very solid professional looking water board (maybe cherry wood with ash accents), and invite all the media they can to their grand installing of it on to the steps of Capital Hill at a nice busy time - call it 4:50 on a Thursday. They could proceed to invite all passing senators, broadcasters, civil servants, Fox “News” Things, what have you, to step right up and show the watching liberal pussies that this waterboarding thing really isn’t torture at all. It takes 30 seconds, it’s not dangerous, heck, you can keep the towels we’ll give you afterwards to dry your hair. Free prize for the person who goes longest. Step right up and show your big hairy republican cojones. I figure it’s win win. Either you get national footage of Washington’s toughest shuffling past trying to stare at their feet, blatantly unwilling to put their $ where their mouth is… OR you get some miracle instant conversion scenes complete with shocking footage of big tough men in suits panicking inside of 15 seconds, reduced to quivering wrecks. Harry Reid can stand there and promise that he’ll give up the whole torture bandwagon thing if anyone will go through it twice. Any way you cut it, the footage would be priceless. [/QUOTE] Excellent idea! I like the way you think. Although I can see something like this metastasizing into the next tawdry hype-laden reality show. Welcome to the Dope and I hope you stick around. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/196 "2007-12-25T18:33:47Z")
> [@cedman](#): > > When you “covered” this you misapplied one definition of the word drown. A village covered in water is not what we’re talking about, we’re talking about people… you know, living human beings? Doesn’t matter. I very clearly proved that the verb “to drown” does not expressly imply death. Again, please try to keep up. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > It diverts attention from just how awful waterboarding is; useful for it’s supporters. Of course. Since I’m a supporter of waterboarding. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/197 "2007-12-25T19:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] Of course. Since I’m a supporter of waterboarding. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] No IIRC. And you didn’t start the “Is it **technically** drowning ?” diversion, either. Which makes you one of the diverted, not the diverter. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/198 "2007-12-25T19:13:30Z")
Am I the only one who reads the op and thinks of Room 101 in [1984?](http://www.netcharles.com/orwell/books/1984-3-05.htm) > [@](#): > > ‘By itself,’ he said, ‘pain is not always enough. There are occasions when a human being will stand out against pain, even to the point of death. But for everyone there is something unendurable—something that cannot be contemplated. Courage and cowardice are not involved. If you are falling from a height it is not cowardly to clutch at a rope. If you have come up from deep water it is not cowardly to fill your lungs with air. It is merely an instinct which cannot be destroyed. It is the same with the rats. For you, they are unendurable. They are a form of pressure that you cannot withstand. even if you wished to. You will do what is required of you. > [@](#): > > The object of torture is torture. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Jay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8e7dd6/32.png) [@El\_Jay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Jay)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/199 "2007-12-25T20:11:28Z")
Few things: 1. You personally “drowned” yourself TWICE by swimming until passing out, and holding breath for over 4 minutes. Why didn’t you “freak out” then ??? 2. If you knew said terrorist scumbag had knowledge about a plot that threatened your own family, would you not approve of water boarding him to get info that would SAVE your family ??? My definition of “torture” physically maims, harms, causes physical pain, and/or deforms the person. Scaring the bee-jeeves out of him doesn’t count… . ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/200 "2007-12-25T21:16:09Z")
[QUOTE=El Jay] 2) If you knew said terrorist scumbag had knowledge about a plot that threatened your own family, would you not approve of water boarding him to get info that would SAVE your family ??? [/quote] And that is going to happen in the real world when ? In reality, you’ll end up with someone who may be perfectly innocent, or ignorant of that particular data. But who will tell you what you want to hear when you torture him, and your family will end up dead because you wasted time using torture and followed the resulting false trail. And if innocent, he or she will now be every much your enemy as the terrorist, so now you’re out your family and have more enemies. Or there may not even be a plot, and you tortured hum or her and made them an enemy for nothing. Good show ! And if you run around torturing people, you are at least as much a “scumbag” as any terrorist. Worse, if anything. [QUOTE=El Jay] My definition of “torture” physically maims, harms, causes physical pain, and/or deforms the person. Scaring the bee-jeeves out of him doesn’t count… [/quote] In other words, you can drive people insane as we have some of our victims, and smirk about how you aren’t REALLY torturing your victims. And then you wonder why all the world hates you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894.md?page=11)