# I waterboard! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2007, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894 "2007-12-22T02:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/121 "2007-12-23T10:50:21Z")
Here’s a post on [daily kos](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/11/18/11525/713/238/410648) that agrees with **Scylla’s** account. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/122 "2007-12-23T13:27:25Z")
Probably the most important OP I’ve seen on this board. There are no ends that justify these means. You do not fight terrorism by becoming an outlaw nation. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/123 "2007-12-23T14:11:41Z")
Two days later, it doesn’t seem all that bad. I mean it’s a little water up the nose, what’s the big deal? I got the same thing after my first 50 miler. During it and immediately after I thought of it as terrible suffering, and pointless and swore never again. A few days later I was like “that wasn’t really so bad.” A year later when I did it again, I was like “Yes, it was. What was I thinking.” So, no. No lasting psychological damage or anything like that 🙂 I seem to be pretty good at revising traumatic experiences after the fact to make them more palatable. The only change I’d make now is that I’d rather be waterboarded then lose my fingers. I’m sure I’d change my mind again once it started. * * * I’m not really prepared to deal with some of the larger questions that were asked. There’s been some debate (not on this board) but Nationally, whether waterboarding is torture and whether it is an acceptable interrogation technique. Clearly, there is some kind of line in interrogation. Is it torture to look at a guy mean and make him nervous? Have his room at 68 rather than 72 degrees? Undercook his eggs? Make him eat his favorite ice cream real fast so he gets a headache? A component of interrogation is to make the person being interrogated feel out of balance, uncomfortable, dependant, and wanting to please his interrogators. I do this to my kids if I send them to their room. Coercion happens at all kinds of levels. The question I wanted to answer was where did waterboarding fall? Should we do it? My conclusion is that waterboarding would be a **very** extreme form of torture. Wherever one might choose to draw the line, waterboarding would be out there on the far end. If we are going to waterboard, we might as well be doing electroshock, beatings, etc. or other forms of “uncivilized” medieval torture. It’s just as bad and worse than most. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/124 "2007-12-23T14:12:37Z")
[QUOTE=bdaswat] Water boarding is simply the “bandwagon” story of the year. If you are en enemy of this country and have information that could potentially save the lives of the TRULY innocent (even if it’s 1 person), I don’t care what they do to the guy. [/QUOTE] I think it would be great to round up all the enemies of Peace and Liberty[sup]TM[/sup] and just torture the shit out of them. Problem is that those bleeding heart liberals Washington and Jefferson and so on really hamstringed us on that one: Amendment VI “In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a **speedy and public trial** , by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.” Amendment VIII “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, **nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted**.” I realize that good ole’ fashioned investigative and intelligence work is a slow process and we’re all about immediate gratification as a society. But maybe going around torturing people doesn’t really set a good example? I mean if we’re going to go around and topple evil dictators and all. Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to outfit my testicles with some electrodes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/125 "2007-12-23T15:36:15Z")
I don’t get it, I really don’t. Was there ever any doubt? Given its long history of use, given the tesitmony of people who have been subjected to it, and the testimony of people who have subjected others to it? (I recall that Mark Twain discussed it obliquely in his anti-imperialist writings about the Phillipine Insurrection as “the water cure”). Despite all of this, there was doubt? Some slim possiblility that this “torture” talk is merely the blatherings of Liberal Scum, who treacherously value humanity and decency above national security? Well, then, I suppose we only have one sensible course of action if we are to ensure that our ignorance is thoroughly dispelled. We must have volunteers, or course, there being no legal recourse to compel participation. And the volunteers must be vetted and certified as Tighty Rightys of the first rank (since lefties cannot be trusted, being wimpy, effete, and far too smart to offer themselves for such a pointless exercise…) Not friend **Scylla** , of course, he has already done yeoman’s work here, and can be excused with the thanks of a grateful nation (despite having been exposed herein as being somewhat to the left of Otto von Bismarck, and hence, suspect). No, we need fresh volunteers of unblemished conservative principle, and a list of dubious techniques to be objectively examined. Tearing fingernails, electrodes to the naughty bits, that sort of thing. Of course, persons such as myself, **Dio, Elvis** etc. must be, regretably, precluded from such participation, our objectivity being questionable. (Sorry, guys, but the stern requirements of science demand…) So, step up, tighty rightys! In an orderly fashion, volunteer yourself and specify precisely which technique you will be subjecting yourselves to. Not all at once now, don’t want a stampede, here. I see no reason why libertarians need be precluded, this is strictly voluntary, and no state coercion is involved, Of course, I would offer my own participation in an instant, were I not a) lefty and b) sane, but I certainly would not dream of compromising the integrity and objectivity of this experiment. My opinion is already formed, but I could be wrong. I’m not, but I could be. (PS: for the record, no volunteers for “the comfy chair” will be accepted. This has only one historical reference, and that as a comedic suggestion.) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/126 "2007-12-23T15:53:33Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] So, step up, tighty rightys! In an orderly fashion, volunteer yourself and specify precisely which technique you will be subjecting yourselves to. Not all at once now, don’t want a stampede, here. I see no reason why libertarians need be precluded, this is strictly voluntary, and no state coercion is involved, Of course, I would offer my own participation in an instant, were I not a) lefty and b) sane, but I certainly would not dream of compromising the integrity and objectivity of this experiment. My opinion is already formed, but I could be wrong. [/QUOTE] Thankfully as a Green Republican and Bush/Cheney hater, I fail on the tighty righty check. I will have withdraw from participation in your experiment. That and I would probably not even try to hold out, I hate pain. I consider a mile and a half run to be a tortuous thing, forget about 100 miles or waterboarding. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/127 "2007-12-23T16:26:07Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Well, then, I suppose we only have one sensible course of action if we are to ensure that our ignorance is thoroughly dispelled. We must have volunteers, or course, there being no legal recourse to compel participation. And the volunteers must be vetted and certified as Tighty Rightys of the first rank (since lefties cannot be trusted, being wimpy, effete, and far too smart to offer themselves for such a pointless exercise…) [/QUOTE] No. No. I trust you. It’s all about fighting and ignorance and we all must do our part. Now it’s your turn. I hear beheading isn’t all that bad. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Sub\_Judice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba9def/32.png) [@Sub\_Judice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sub_Judice)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/128 "2007-12-23T16:47:39Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] I hear beheading isn’t all that bad. :dubious: [/QUOTE] The 1st time is supposed to be the worst 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/129 "2007-12-23T17:05:14Z")
> [@bdaswat](#): > > PS if that guy’s a conservative, I must be a fascist. No, he’s brave. You’re just a…well, I don’t know _what_ the hell you are. ---
**Author:** ![Jean-Pierre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@Jean-Pierre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jean-Pierre)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/130 "2007-12-23T18:08:06Z")
I’ve done a little experimenting with waterboarding myself just using the wet rag method. I posted some video of myself and others undergoing the experience at: [Media for Social Change: I Waterboarded Myself](http://mediaforsocialchange.blogspot.com/2007/12/i-waterboarded-myself.html) I never tried the saran wrap method (it sounds awful), but the vacuuming effect of the wet rag did induce panic even though I was totally in control of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/131 "2007-12-23T19:42:20Z")
> [@Sub Judice](#): > > The 1st time is supposed to be the worst OTOH, I hear the sensation of air rushing over your neck is supposed to be quite pleasant. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/132 "2007-12-23T20:04:28Z")
[QUOTE=Jean-Pierre] I’ve done a little experimenting with waterboarding myself just using the wet rag method. I posted some video of myself and others undergoing the experience at: [Media for Social Change: I Waterboarded Myself](http://mediaforsocialchange.blogspot.com/2007/12/i-waterboarded-myself.html) I never tried the saran wrap method (it sounds awful), but the vacuuming effect of the wet rag did induce panic even though I was totally in control of the situation. [/QUOTE] Ah, but compared to **Scylla** you are a raving Commie, and therefore your judgement is not to be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/133 "2007-12-23T21:00:16Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] Ah, but compared to **Scylla** you are a raving Commie, and therefore your judgement is not to be trusted. [/QUOTE] What I want to know is why he felt it was necessary to drive out into the desert in the middle of the night to waterboard himself. I have to give that major style points. The only way to top it would be to dig a grave sized hole first. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/134 "2007-12-23T22:29:37Z")
[QUOTE=bdaswat] I’m a libertarian if that’s of any relevance. [/QUOTE] No, Libertarianism hasn’t been relevant for years. ---
**Author:** ![Chouan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@Chouan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chouan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/135 "2007-12-23T23:38:41Z")
bdaswat is missing the point. By demonstrating the mental anguish caused by this method of interrogation, Scylla’s experiment actually reinforces its usefulness as a tool in the fight against terrorism. It doesn’t matter if we waterboard or not. What’s important is that the terrorists BELIEVE that we do, AND that it’s a terrible experience. If they don’t believe that we might conduct this form of interrogation on them, then they might refuse to cooperate. UNENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO: INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is. AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No. INTERROGATOR: Ok. ENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO: INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is. AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No. INTERROGATOR: Ok, then read this [hands suspect a copy of Scylla’s post and winks] AL-QAIDA: I confess! ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2007, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/136 "2007-12-23T23:55:19Z")
Thanks for the coloring book, **Chouan**. One problem, though: it has dialogue, but it seems to be missing illustrations. Can you send those over? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/137 "2007-12-24T00:06:38Z")
[QUOTE=Chouan] bdaswat is missing the point. By demonstrating the mental anguish caused by this method of interrogation, Scylla’s experiment actually reinforces its usefulness as a tool in the fight against terrorism. It doesn’t matter if we waterboard or not. What’s important is that the terrorists BELIEVE that we do, AND that it’s a terrible experience. If they don’t believe that we might conduct this form of interrogation on them, then they might refuse to cooperate. UNENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO: INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is. AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No. INTERROGATOR: Ok. ENHANCED INTERROGATION SCENARIO: INTERROGATOR: Tell us where the bomb is. AL-QAIDA SUSPECT: No. INTERROGATOR: Ok, then read this [hands suspect a copy of Scylla’s post and winks] AL-QAIDA: I confess! [/QUOTE] Welcome to the SDMB, **Choan.** Somehow I believe that America’s reputation amongst terrorism suspects is much worse than just waterboarding. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/138 "2007-12-24T00:26:18Z")
Has anyone here heard of [Daniel Levin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Levin)? He was an assistant US attorney general in the Bush administration who had himself waterboarded voluntarily (by trained members of the military), and then wrote a memo arguing that it is in fact torture. (There is a link to the memo in the Wikipedia article.) ---
**Author:** ![Kaboodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kaboodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaboodle)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/139 "2007-12-24T03:50:55Z")
I was reading this thread: [Is there any truth torture works?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448816) and a guest, **vison** , posted a link to another message board post about an article at [The Atlantic.com](http://www.theatlantic.com/). I wanted to find the original article [Truth Extraction](http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200506/budiansky) which is actually very interesting in that it basically says the most effective interrogators didn’t use torture, they used kindness. Yes, even in cases where the information was time sensitive. There’s a little more to it than that but this information is from the Marine Corps interrogating Japanese prisoners during WWII. The point of this post is that I found this thread is now on the front page of The [Atlantic.com](http://Atlantic.com): > [@](#): > > Andrew Sullivan 23 December 2007 8:28 pm > Self-Waterboarding: An Experiment > Here’s a fascinating account of a very fit man subjecting himself to waterboarding in order to answer the question for himself whether every legal precedent that says it’s torture is correct or not. [Read More](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/self-waterboard.html) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894/140 "2007-12-24T04:13:50Z")
I should be getting paid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-waterboard/430894.md?page=8)