Turn off the television. It’s confusing you.
Fascinating OP. Bonkers, but fascinating.
I once inhaled a huge amount of water - I was having a refreshing drink after a tough game of squash with my brother and he made me laugh. I sucked the water up into my lungs. It was frightening, not comparable to waterboarding, but frightening all the same because there was no room for air in my lungs.
When, after choking, coughing, heaving etc subsided, we realised I was OK, and it was time to joke about it, my brother offered the following:
“You see, the way I always remember it is: water you drink, air you breathe. Gotta have a system.”
A fascinating OP, and an honor to be acknowledged therein.
elucidator: Please state your purpose of quibbling.
At this point I would suggest your quibble after being anything but a historian with some sort of credentials and published work, I would not be sure of your rationale to do so.
What candidate McCain has stated during the debates was not only germaine to that forum, but absolutely true.
Some of course.
Assuming they care, which I see no reason to believe, they could strike at either American soldiers/military targets, or political leaders & parties known to support, for example, the Iraq war.
Not that I expect them to restrain themselves that way. Expecting them to hold to a higher standard than we adhere to is unrealistic. We, after all, have killed tens or hundreds of thousands who were no danger to us at all. That, after all, is one of the major arguments against things like killing civilians and torture in the first place; it invites attacks in kind.
The funniest thing about this whole thread is that Scylla thought he needed to conduct a test to find out if waterboarding was unpleasant. I mean it is technique used on people who would rather die than give us information and it seems to work. At least I hope it works cause I would hate to think our government is violating all the principles this country is supposed to stand for simply to continue using an ineffective method of torture.
First, Scylla, I salute you, as have so many others. Although I’ve rarely agreed with your opinions, I’ve always respected your integrity and now do so all the more.
And second:
It’s only irreversible if we don’t fight it.
It is time–indeed, far past time–for those of us who have been deploring this slide from the viewpoint of our comfortable, padded lives to take action. Don’t just write your congressman, don’t just send a bit of money to a reformer and then go back to reruns on the tube. Get actively involved.
For instance, as the first one that comes to mind, Darcy Burner[sup]1[/sup] in Washington state is asking for money and volunteers to mount another attack on the Congressional seat of one of the most aggressive supporters of the war.
Wherever you live in the United States, there are individuals and organizations trying to fight back and they need your active help. If you can’t find such a group where you live, then start one. Run for Congress yourself, if you have to. Talk to friends and relatives. Talk to strangers. Get out and knock on doors. Organize rallies and demonstrations. Raise money. DO SOMETHING!
For myself, I recently purchased the domain name [censored][sup]2[/sup] and will be building a website cum blog and registering a PAC to raise funds and provide them to organizations and Congressional candidates sworn to defend the Constitution and bring America back to honesty, to integrity, to that high moral ground that others in this thread have spoken about.
In addition, I will (in the not-too-far-future, I hope) be working actively for such a candidate (yet to be chosen) trying to unseat Rep. Dan Lipinsky (D-IL 3rd) for whom I voted in 2006 and with whom I am deeply, deeply unsatisfied.
Verbal outrage is fine but, my friends, please…
Do something.
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I do not live in Washington state and am not actively affiliated with the campaign organization of Darcy Burner.
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The website is not yet open so I can’t invite you to visit. Even if it were open, I would choose not to violate SDMB rules. Instead, please participate in the new thread I will be starting to debate exactly what needs to be done to bring America back.
Thank god for some small ground of agreement.
Striking against military and political leaders I can see as “legitimate” acts of war (in quotations because I’m pretty far toward the no-war-is-justifiable end of the spectrum). But against political parties? You think it’d be ethical for them to strike at the Republican party, killing folks for being a member of the party? If that’s what you’re saying, your ethics are about half a step removed from Pol Pot.
Certainly. This isn’t about them; this is about you, and what appears to be an apology for acts of mass killing.
Who, once again, is this we, kemosabe? I’ve not killed a single person. You keep trying to dump the blood of innocent people on my head, but you need to put the damn bucket down. It’s that kind of zealotry that ends up spilling the blood.
It’s not that I expect them to be better than Bush. It’s that I expect you to be–and currently I see no sign that your ethics allow you to take any high road.
Daniel
Call me a pessimist.
That’s why I’m pessimistic.
Askeptic, I’m an Army interrogator and I never had any problem getting people to talk. I used extremely sophistocated techniques such as:
“Would you like a cup of coffee?”
“Why don’t you tell me about yourself?”
“What can I do for you?”
“Have some Gummi Bears. They’re Halal.”
In short, stop watching “24” and realize this: being humane and building rapport with prisoners works. If they’re not a terrorist, you don’t want to turn them into one. IF they are, there is always the possibility you could change their mind. They’re still a human being. It doesn’t matter how they regard you; you have to live with yourself. You have to have a standard you aspire to. We once took over custody of a guy who’d been in other Coalition hands before he came to us. His cellphone and other belongings had been lost and he’d been beaten. I was proud of the fact that we reimbursed him for his cellphone and other things and released when it became apparent we had not enough evidence to charge him. Was it worth it? I think so, just in terms of sleeping at night. Later on, we heard from multiple sources that this guy—once an enemy----had been going about town, exclaiming in amazement at how good his treatment had been. Granted, that treatment was basic decency, but still, it felt good. You know what? It continues to feel good.
There is no ticking time bomb. There is no one guy with the single key to an immense plot. It doesn’t work like that in real life.
Scylla, as a service member who has studied the Geneva Convention and interrogated prisoners, as someone who has tried to free someone from Abu Ghraib, you have my respect. Please accept my regards.
Sooooo, you’re saying waterboarding is pleasant? But Scylla just said it wasn’t…
Besides nobody said the ARMY was waterboarding it is the CIA and they are destroying the tapes. I wonder why? Probably cause they don’t want to ruin their reps being seen offering the enemy coffee and giving them backrubs and stuff…
BTW you should get to know people before you get all condescending. I was the SSO on a LRS unit in the 101st MI LRSD I spent a year in Iraq. Before that I spent 4 years in the 82nd Airborne.
Did you spend it as an interrogator?
Also, if you think I’m saying waterboarding is pleasant, do please provide a cite for where I said that. I’m saying simply that people are human—what a shock!—and that treating them humanely works. Got that now?
If that’s what you were saying then I fail to see how it relates to what I posted.
Or are you saying that the government waterboards people who are willing to give info in exchange for being treated nice. Frankly I am not sure what you are saying. I mean you will concede that US personnel have waterboarded some people right?
You said: “The funniest thing about this whole thread is that Scylla thought he needed to conduct a test to find out if waterboarding was unpleasant. I mean it is technique used on people who would rather die than give us information and it seems to work. At least I hope it works cause I would hate to think our government is violating all the principles this country is supposed to stand for simply to continue using an ineffective method of torture.”
I have found that no, they would not like to die, and no, also, that waterboarding doesn’t work, and even if it does work it is inhumane and cruel. I don’t care if these people would rather die than give us information. Frankly, I’ve found that treating them humanely works wonders. They do not want to die. I would prefer not to use any form of torture, ineffective or not. In fact, I would prefer to use no torture at all. In further point of fact, I would refuse to use torture if so ordered.
Does that work for you? This is not a subject I take lightly. I don’t care if it works or not. I don’t care if it’s effective or not. It’s abominable. It’s horrific. It’s dishonorable. I won’t use it and I can barely stand to discuss it as if it were an option.
Bolding mine. You must have skipped over the part I bolded. It was meant to sarcastically imply my disapproval of the technique.
It didn’t work.
Clearly.
Well, then, let’s start over. As I take it, you are against torture and waterboarding and inhumane treatment of captives, official POWs or not. So, obviously, am I. What do we do about it? You and I both swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States of America. I had to study the Geneva Conventions before I could graduate from the schoolhouse. Where do we start? What do we do?
If it were up to me I would forbid torture, but it is not up to me. And I don’t have to conduct home experiments to know that waterboarding is in fact torture. Maybe you should mail a copy of the Geneva Conventions on Torture and treatment of prisoners to the Whitehouse.
Who there has the military experience to appreciate its implications?