# I will be flamed for this. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 13, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895 "2012-12-13T03:13:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/21 "2012-12-13T04:32:05Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > According to most statistics being bandied about in popular news media, yes, it is. Just about exactly [average](http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.us.htm), but of course there is going to a very wide variation based on geography even within the same general job classification ( and said average apparently excludes both farm and public employees ). ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/22 "2012-12-13T04:37:25Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Maybe one day your boss will remove that firearm he has aimed at your head that is thus far forcing you to work for him. > mmm Heh. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Your boss pays you what he values you services at. \ Yup. > [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > \ > It really comes down to my wondering why company owners pay their people just enough to not quit. \ You’re kind of answering your own question there - why on earth would they pay _more_ than enough to get employees not to quit? That’s kind of like going to a store and paying more than the sticker price for an item. > [@wheresmymind](#): > > Why don’t you ask for a raise? Lay out your case ahead of time, make a list with bullet points if you have to. There’s nothing wrong or impolite about making a reasoned, logical, emotionally restrained case for a raise. That’s a good idea - maybe you could make a case for changing your position to a contract one, where you get paid a higher hourly rate but you lose all benefits, thereby reducing your employer’s overhead. ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/23 "2012-12-13T06:57:34Z")
Nobody ever got **nuthin’** waiting for the moral sensibilities of a boss to set in. That’s why unions are necessary and “right to work” states suck. Insist on what you want. If he doesn’t meet it, go elsewhere and then support your fellow workers however you can. And vote. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/24 "2012-12-14T03:33:13Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Heh. > > Yup. > > _ **You’re kind of answering your own question there - why on earth would they pay more than enough to get employees not to quit? That’s kind of like going to a store and paying more than the sticker price for an item.** _ > > That’s a good idea - maybe you could make a case for changing your position to a contract one, where you get paid a higher hourly rate but you lose all benefits, thereby reducing your employer’s overhead. Responding to the bolded part: Because in conjunction with an effective leadership structure it can encourage a successful attitude in individual employees which leads to an overall succesful direction of the company. Plus it removes “perception of pay fairness” as an impediment to increased productivity. Like I said before. But there’s a crap-ton of mediocre smallish sized companies out there like this one so obviously this reasoning is not common. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/25 "2012-12-14T03:59:24Z")
> [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](#): > > $23/hour is significantly more than most people in America? I doubt that. That’s like $45k a year. [According to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States), which sources the US Census Bureau, he’s making more money than about 54% of _households_ in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/26 "2012-12-14T04:12:20Z")
You sound pretty handy - spend some time - if you have it, starting a handyman’s business. Don’t quit your job yet. You can do it for small businesses - my neighbor, a former airline mechanic - does handyman work for hair salons and rakes in a ton of cash because he can fix anything. You sound like you have similar skills - and businesses like salons are often looking for people with those skills. So are homeowners or rental property owners who can’t, or don’t want to be bothered, changing out faucets or putting up curtains. The reason your boss can do what he does is because he’s in an industry with fairly high barriers to entry - that equipment. The trucks. He’s built that over years and its hard to get going on it - unless you can “buy in” somehow. Go into a business with lower barriers to entry. Build up a clientele. In no time at all you’ll be able to make more than you are making. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/27 "2012-12-14T04:15:09Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > That’s like $45k a year. [According to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States), which sources the US Census Bureau, he’s making more money than about 54% of _households_ in the US. Wiki has 2003 numbers, the economy hasn’t been great, but the census has more recent numbers: [http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html](http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html) $52,762 median income per household ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/28 "2012-12-14T04:18:00Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Or they’re too short sighted to see that increased pay makes people work harder, and those few lazy bums who take advantage are easy to spot and even easier to replace in such an amenable work environment. Increased pay makes people work harder? i.e, if people are putting in x% effort at work for $y and their boss increases their wages to $y+z, they start putting in x+w% effort? Really? Firstly, why do you think that’s the case? Secondly, maybe the boss prefers x% for $y to the second scenario (x+w% for $y+z). How much $z is needed to put in enough w% to make the boss more money? Would w% result in definitely more money for the boss, enough to cover $z as well as the effort of figuring out what $z and w% is for each employee? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/29 "2012-12-14T04:52:17Z")
There seems to be a consensus among those who study management that while low pay makes employees unhappy, better pay doesn’t make them happy. In general, the factor that make workers unhappy cannot simply be reversed to make employees excel. Another example: a mean boss makes you angry, but does a nice boss make you love your job? Probably not. Being happy in your job tends to mean you feel part of a team, you feel like you achieve things, you feel like you’re being put to your best use, and you are growing in your responsibilities. Whatever math you can come up with to show that a $3 raise for you is insignificant for your boss is well and good, but assuming that an employee is being paid roughly fairly for his work, the idea that paying them more will return productivity is far from a foregone conclusion. It sounds like you have a good case for being a valuable employee. Some bosses need to be forced to see the value of their staffs. One key to successful negotiations is for you to understand what you will do if negotiations fail: will you quit? Look for another job? Seek a transfer? Go to college? Keep on working and try again later? When you figure that out for yourself, you’ll be better mentally prepared to ask for a raise. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/30 "2012-12-14T09:09:39Z")
You are never paid equal to the value you generate. There’s always has to be a profit margin for the owner. Also, much of the cost you incur isn’t taken out of your salary. If you want to fully earn your worth, start your own business. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/31 "2012-12-14T10:07:13Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > IIf I was paid enough, I’d buy my own tools and truck. . That problem could be solved by taking out a loan from a bank for a good used truck. You could do the math it that would be doable if you were to work for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/32 "2012-12-14T11:47:51Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > … And I have just as much right as any other capitalist to maximize my profits. If my employer can “overcharge” for the services he provides, why can’t I? I don’t believe that I would be, but it’s a point worth making… You may have all the political rights of a capitalist, but you are not one. You are a laborer. If you want to be a capitalist, buy the truck and tools and make a business. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/33 "2012-12-14T14:31:32Z")
> [@Essured](#): > > Increased pay makes people work harder? i.e, if people are putting in x% effort at work for $y and their boss increases their wages to $y+z, they start putting in x+w% effort? Really? Firstly, why do you think that’s the case? Secondly, maybe the boss prefers x% for $y to the second scenario (x+w% for $y+z). How much $z is needed to put in enough w% to make the boss more money? Would w% result in definitely more money for the boss, enough to cover $z as well as the effort of figuring out what $z and w% is for each employee? As I obviously did a poor job pointing out: in conjunction with an effective leadership structure, yes, increased pay makes people work harder. Feeling part of a team, feeling valued for your efforts, that’s what makes people demonstrate initiative. The boss cannot generate all of his growth on his own, he needs his employees to do that for him. You don’t need to pay people an insane amount of wages, but in an environment where everybody knows they are being paid approximately 10% below industry average while being expected to do the same work - the individual sense of initiative isn’t there. Why would it be? Creating an environment where people feel individually successful (paid more) and are confident in the leadership above them (effective leadership structure) will make a successful team. Therefore: Profit. For everyone. Not just the boss. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/34 "2012-12-14T14:32:32Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > That problem could be solved by taking out a loan from a bank for a good used truck. You could do the math it that would be doable if you were to work for yourself. Yup. If my credit weren’t shot from my recent divorce, that’d be an option. But it’s not. I’ve got about 5 years until I’m back to where I was credit-wise. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/35 "2012-12-14T14:40:38Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > That’s like $45k a year. [According to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States), which sources the US Census Bureau, he’s making more money than about 54% of _households_ in the US. I love :rolleyes: those type of statistics, because that 54% (or whatever the current number is) is comprised of many individuals who for one reason or another would never be able to lift themselves out of that lower class position (financially speaking). No education, little work experience, perhaps disabled, retired, on welfare, living in a dead city, etc. etc. etc. There’d be no practical way to parse out the portion of people who make up that 54% number who have a hope of earning more. What I’m getting at is rather moot, but bears mentioning; I earn more money than a lot of people who could \*never \*earn as much as I do no matter what they did, and yet I’m whining that it isn’t enough and for this I’m confident I’m leaving a bad taste in people’s mouths with this thread. Is the presence of greater inequity elsewhere reason enough to not address the inequity you are personally faced with? That’s probably been debated here before… ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/36 "2012-12-14T14:46:31Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > You are never paid equal to the value you generate. There’s always has to be a profit margin for the owner. Also, much of the cost you incur isn’t taken out of your salary. > > If you want to fully earn your worth, start your own business. Agreed, acknowledged, understood. Discussed above. $23/hr plus benefits/taxes/misc =/= $89/hr-$179/hr by a long shot. The overly generous average man-hour cost is $50/hr. This is a ridiculously high number used to ensure jobs are quoted with more than enough profit in them, and it’s also the same number the boss uses when figuring out how much his employees cost him. A wildly high and mostly made up number that keeps employees’ quiet about raises and keeps the bosses wallet full. So as I said, the 15% bump in my salary would not even begin to touch the profit margin by enough to justify denying my increase. I think it’s just the owner’s emotional attachment to money. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/37 "2012-12-14T15:25:48Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > A wildly high and mostly made up number that keeps employees’ quiet about raises and keeps the bosses wallet full. > > So as I said, the 15% bump in my salary would not even begin to touch the profit margin by enough to justify denying my increase. I think it’s just the owner’s emotional attachment to money. It’s his money. He’s the business owner; if you want a slice of that pie you can take the risks and perhaps reap the rewards. But as you said, you’re not in a position to take own the loans needed because of your financial situation so you need a person like him to establish the business, carry the overhead, take the risk, and provide you with an opportunity to earn money. This isn’t to say that he might find a way to compensate you better for your work. No one is saying that he’s the best possible business owner; I’m sure there are things he could improve on to make his business run better. But it doesn’t sound like you have unlimited options and are in no real danger of leaving in short order. Unless you present your case as a business proposition AND are willing to walk if you don’t get what you are looking for he has no real incentive to pay you more. You say an “emotional attachment to money” as if you think it’s a bad thing. It _can_ be a shortsighted view of things but you haven’t adequately demonstrated that. You also said that no one else can do your job as good as you do for the price you are paid - that may be true as well but if you don’t have other better paying options it doesn’t give you any leverage. ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/38 "2012-12-14T16:32:53Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > So as I said, the 15% bump in my salary would not even begin to touch the profit margin by enough to justify denying my increase. I think it’s just the owner’s emotional attachment to money. Wait, have you made your case for a raise already and had it denied? I didn’t see you mentioning that so I assumed you hadn’t. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/39 "2012-12-14T16:48:36Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > I’m paid significantly more than most people in America - I make $23/hr. Maybe I am out of touch, but I do not think this is even close to accurate. :dubious: I make about 60% more than that and do not in any way feel rich or privileged. After taxes, mortgage, daycare and college/retirement funds I am not hopping in a lear jet anytime soon. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895/40 "2012-12-14T17:08:16Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Feeling part of a team, feeling valued for your efforts, that’s what makes people demonstrate initiative. The boss cannot generate all of his growth on his own, he needs his employees to do that for him. You don’t need to pay people an insane amount of wages, but in an environment where everybody knows they are being paid approximately 10% below industry average while being expected to do the same work - the individual sense of initiative isn’t there. Why would it be? Creating an environment where people feel individually successful (paid more) and are confident in the leadership above them (effective leadership structure) will make a successful team. Therefore: Profit. For everyone. Not just the boss. Again, the evidence is that more money doesn’t make people more productive. Bad pay makes employees resentful, but better pay doesn’t make workers better. Besides, your boss can just use this viewpoint against you: if he has to give up money to give you a raise, you might be a better employee, but he will definitely be a worse boss. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-will-be-flamed-for-this/643895.md?page=3)